Torsten Bell MP: speeches 2025

Speeches

• 12 May 2025 · Winter Fuel Payment: Means-testing · Hansard source

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  I can tell the right hon. Member about pensioner poverty. It halved under the last Labour Government and it rose on the Conservatives’ watch, by 200,000. Yes, we have had to make some difficult choices, but it is because of those difficult choices that we can afford a £31 billion annual increase in the state pension over the current Parliament and an extra £26 billion a year for the NHS. None of those choices would the Conservatives back, which is why the NHS and the state pension would be endangered on their watch.

• 12 May 2025 · Winter Fuel Payment: Means-testing · Hansard source

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  I am grateful for the work that has been done by councils and third sector organisations throughout the United Kingdom to drive uptake of pension credit. That work has led to the 50,000 extra awards that I mentioned earlier. The choices we have made mean that we can protect pensioners across the board, and the 4.1% increase in the state pension in April was possible exactly because of the tough choices that we have had to make.

• 12 May 2025 · Winter Fuel Payment: Means-testing · Hansard source

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  I refer the right hon. Member to the Secretary of State’s letter of 19 November to the Work and Pensions Committee. As well as means-testing the winter fuel payment, this Government launched the biggest ever pension credit take-up campaign, because we want all pensioners to receive the support to which they are entitled. The result has been almost 50,000 more awards than were received during the same period in the preceding year.

• 12 May 2025 · Winter Fuel Payment: Means-testing · Hansard source

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  I can guarantee that this Government are going to deliver on our priorities for pensioners by raising the state pension, with a £470-a-year increase this April, and saving the NHS, with a £26 billion increase every single year. What will the Conservatives be doing? None of that, because they oppose every single measure required to fund it. We know what the Tory plan is, because we have just lived through it: pensioner poverty rising and the NHS collapsing.

• 12 May 2025 · Winter Fuel Payment: Means-testing · Hansard source

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  We have set out our policy, but here we are 10 months on and I have no idea what the Conservatives’ policy is. I am not even sure that they know what their policy is. For all the shouting, there is no promise to reinstate a universal winter fuel payment. There is one policy from the Leader of the Opposition, the very woman who called for the winter fuel payment to be means-tested in 2022: now, she wants to means-test the entire state pension. Apparently, that is “exactly the sort of thing we will look at”. She thinks that is bold policymaking. It is not—it is bonkers.

• 23 Apr 2025 · Pension Funds · Hansard source

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  I thank the hon. Member for the reminder to respond to that point. He will know that trustees already have a responsibility to invest in the interests of their members and that the law requires trustees of significant schemes—with more than 100 members—to set out a clear statement of their investment principles. The hon. Member for Hazel Grove (Lisa Smart) mentioned some of the issues they will want to consider in that. That is how trustees provide clarity to their savers. There is also then scope for individuals, particularly in larger pension schemes on the defined contribution side, to make choices about where they invest their funds. We see that, for example, with the National Employment Savings Trust, the Government-backed pension scheme, where individuals make different choices on the grounds of ethical issues across the board, including defence, as mentioned by the hon. Member for Honiton and Sidmouth (Richard Foord). I thank him for his intervention and for reminding me to come back on that point before concluding. It is important that we offer people secure retirements. That is the job of this Government, it is my job as the Pensions Minister, and it is what our pensions review is focusing on doing. It is what this Government will always do. Question put and agreed to.

• 23 Apr 2025 · Pension Funds · Hansard source

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  Everyone deserves a secure retirement. For many, their occupational pension is an essential part of that. Having spent years paying into a pension scheme, it matters to all of us that they get a decent pension out. It must be decent in the sense of being adequate for their needs and decent in terms of providing the benefits that they were promised. I am pleased that the hon. Member for Stratford-on-Avon (Manuela Perteghella) has secured this debate and spoken so well during it on a topic deeply relevant to all our constituents—after all, we are all either a pensioner or planning on becoming one at some point. I thank her and everyone else who has spoken. We have heard about a wide range of issues, relevant to different pension schemes and different pensioners. I will not comment in great detail on specific pension schemes, although I am sure that specific employers will have heard hon. Members’ points this evening. I will respond in more general terms to the points that the hon. Member for Stratford-on-Avon and others have raised. She raised the issue of integrated pension schemes, which are sometimes called clawback schemes. I appreciate that that type of scheme can be controversial, thanks to the change in the private pension income involved. All of us sympathise with anyone who expected a straightforward income increase when their state pension kicked in, only to find that things were much more complicated than that. I have read and listened to representations on this issue myself. As with all defined benefit schemes, integrated schemes are required to pay out the full value of the promised pensions to each member, as set out in their scheme rules. That provides certainty, security and a base on which savers can build their retirement plans. Integrating an occupational pension scheme with the state pension was a core design of some schemes, and that has pros and cons. It used to be a common feature of final salary schemes, covering almost half of schemes, according to one survey from the early 2000s, although it is far less common today, partly for some of the reasons that the hon. Lady set out. The original aim was to provide a smooth level of pension income throughout retirement that started before the state pension age was reached, with a higher amount of occupational pension paid before state pension age, followed by a reduction in the occupational pension when the member received their state pension. The amount of the reduction is required to be set out in the pension scheme rules, and it is therefore very important that the rules are clearly communicated to those involved, as my hon. Friend the Member for Doncaster East and the Isle of Axholme (Lee Pitcher) made clear. While the aims of integrated pensions are clear, it would, of course, be a big shock to anyone to see their occupational pension reduced upon receiving the state pension if they had not expected it. It is therefore important for employees to understand the pension benefits they can get from their scheme, and the Government place great weight on the importance of that clear communication, without which no one can plan properly for the future. All schemes are required by law to provide every member with basic information about the scheme, either before they join or very shortly afterwards. That includes an explanation of the contributions in the case of some of the schemes mentioned today, which were on the employer side only, but also how benefits were calculated— exactly the integrated clawback mechanisms we are talking about this evening. If savers have not received clear communication in the form required by law, they must have avenues of redress. They can bring a complaint to their scheme’s internal dispute procedure, but if that does not resolve the issue, the Pensions Ombudsman is there to act. There have been some calls tonight for the Government to compel the withdrawal of integration arrangements—those calls have been common for some time, and I have heard them. I recognise some of the arguments being made, but I owe it to this House to be clear that we cannot retrospectively change the benefits schemes offered to their members. Any legislative change would affect all integrated schemes, risking the future of some that are less well funded. However, I do want to engage with the question of pension fairness, which so many Members from across the House have raised this evening. While the law is very clear that men and women must be treated equally within any scheme, I understand the points that have been raised about the effects of those scheme rules, which are felt very unequally indeed. The inequality of pensions more broadly is a big issue for society, particularly for women and lower earners over the years. I want to celebrate some progress that has been made, but also recognise how much more there is to do. On progress, the new state pension introduced after 2016 by the previous Government has made a significant difference in closing the gap between the average amounts received weekly by men and by women, to equalise those amounts in practice. The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) mentioned the importance of the state pension—it is the bedrock of all of our pension savings—so that is progress that has been made. We have also seen significant progress on automatic enrolment, with 89% of eligible women now saving into a pension. That is a big change from the 2000s, when as few as 40% of women were saving into a pension pot. However, there is much more to do. The gender pension gap, for which the Department for Work and Pensions now publishes figures the first time, is very large indeed. Some of that reflects some of the historical issues we have been discussing, but it also reflects our labour market. Women have lower employment rates, are much more likely to do part-time work, and are much more likely to be lower earners—for example, 3.9% of women work in low-paid work as opposed to 2.8% of men. Those underlying structural inequalities then manifest as pension inequality, which is one of the reasons why it is so important that reform of the state pension has moved towards a more equal treatment of women and men. As for what the Government are doing about pension inequality, we will shortly set out a timeline for phase 2 of our pensions review, focusing on adequacy and, in particular, addressing some of these very important questions. Although people talk about pension adequacy on average across the whole population, it is very different for different groups, which is exactly why the pensions review will need to reflect on the questions raised. However, it also highlights the importance of some of the changes being brought through in the labour market by this Government, including through the Employment Rights Bill. That Bill will disproportionately benefit women, who are more often lower earners. Turning to the question of indexation, some schemes do provide indexation above the legal minimum on a discretionary basis. Like the hon. Member for Surrey Heath (Dr Pinkerton), I sympathise with those members who had understood that they would receive ongoing discretionary increases, only to be let down. We take their concerns seriously; I have now met several groups of MPs on exactly this issue, and have asked the Department to work with the Pensions Regulator to understand why schemes are not making discretionary payments and to monitor trends. Both trustees and employers need to think carefully about the effect of inflation on members’ benefits—that is especially true on the back of the exceptional inflation in recent years. Pension scheme trustees, after all, have a fiduciary duty to scheme members—a duty they should apply when considering discretionary increases. That is directly relevant to recently announced reforms on the use of surpluses in defined benefit schemes, as several Members have raised. Those reforms will make it easier for individual schemes to make decisions that improve outcomes for sponsoring employers and members. That could include discretionary benefit increases, where trustees can consider the situation of those members who would benefit from such rises and whether the scheme has a history of making such payments. Trustees will, in negotiation with the employer, be responsible for determining how members may benefit from any release of surplus. I thank Members who have contributed this evening, in particular the hon. Member for Stratford-on-Avon. We all benefit from the opportunity to address this important topic. As the Minister for Pensions, it is my priority to ensure that people who work hard can enjoy the retirement they are owed. That is what this Government will always do.

• 8 Apr 2025 · Foreign Investment: UK Summit · Hansard source

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  Increasing investment in the UK, both public and private, is the Government’s absolute priority. It is the route to restarting badly needed productivity and wage growth. As the hon. Member will know, at the international investment summit, companies committed to a record-breaking £63 billion-worth of investment, which is set to help to create around 30,000 jobs.

• 8 Apr 2025 · Foreign Investment: UK Summit · Hansard source

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  My hon. Friend consistently asks good questions that go to the heart of the matter. If I look back over the past 14 years, I see that British business investment has been the lowest in the G7 year after year. We are going to put that right.

• 8 Apr 2025 · Foreign Investment: UK Summit · Hansard source

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  The hon. Member will be excited to know that the Business Secretary will be announcing in the coming weeks that shovels are already in the ground, or will be going into the ground, for some projects. I am a very good colleague to Ministers, so I am not going to pre-empt that announcement today.

• 8 Apr 2025 · Pensioners: Cost of Living · Hansard source

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  What the Government are doing is raising the state pension, extending the warm home discount, and ensuring that an extra 50,000 people have had access to pension credit over the last six months. When Members talk about mistakes that have had lasting consequences for pensioners, I look back to the coalition Government’s decision to cut the rate of energy installations by 90%. Pensioners are living with that legacy, in leaky homes, day in day out, but this Government are getting on with insulating homes throughout the country.

• 8 Apr 2025 · Pensioners: Cost of Living · Hansard source

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  I thank my hon. Friend for being a regular attender at Treasury questions, and indeed, as far as I can work out, at every other departmental questions session. He is right to suggest that we will do more, because we are not just increasing pensions above the rate of inflation this year but doing so throughout the current Parliament, and that should raise the state pension by up to £1,900 by the end of the Parliament.

• 8 Apr 2025 · Pensioners: Cost of Living · Hansard source

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  The Government’s top priorities for pensioners are to raise the state pension and to rescue the NHS. This week more than 12 million pensioners saw their state pensions rise by 4.1%, well ahead of inflation. That is worth an extra £470 a year for someone on the full new state pension, and £360 a year for those on the full basic state pension.

• 2 Apr 2025 · Green Book Review · Hansard source

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  It is a pleasure to have you overseeing us today, Mr Pritchard. Like everybody else, I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Congleton (Mrs Russell) on securing the debate. I also thank all Members for setting out their views, which are in themselves important contributions to the Green Book review that His Majesty’s Treasury is undertaking, and which is our focus this afternoon. Before I respond to the specific points raised, I will spell out what the Green Book is and what it is for. The Green Book is a technical guidance on how to assess the costs and benefits, and the opportunities and risks, of different options to achieve Government objectives. It is not a decision-making algorithm or a test that must be passed. It is a framework for identifying and assessing different options. It is an important framework but, as lots of Members have rightly pointed out, it should be just one input into decision making. It is ultimately for Government, both national and regional—who are held to account by this place, in our case—to decide on policy objectives and spending choices. We must not evade our responsibilities behind technical frameworks. This Government have listened to the concerns raised about that framework, such as concerns from our mayors, including my friend Steve Rotheram, and Members present today. That is exactly why the Chancellor announced a review in January: to ensure that all regions get a fair hearing when it comes to the allocation of public funds. The review is looking at potential problems with the guidance itself, as well as how that guidance is being applied by the Treasury, and how it is being applied by other Departments or public bodies. Since January, the Treasury has been in conversations with a whole range of organisations and individuals, regional and national, and this debate offers us the opportunity to hear the well-considered views and perspectives of Members. I assure all Members that what they have said today will have been heard in the Treasury, and will influence that review as it is finalised ahead of the spending review in June. The frustration that many people feel on this subject is entirely understandable. It is rooted ultimately not in technical questions about cost-benefit analyses, but in unacceptable outcomes, not least flatlining wages for the UK as a whole over the past decade and a half—and, for some areas, abandoned during the 1980s and sidelined during 2010s, for far, far longer. The frustration is understandable, when low investment manages to combine being both the cause of this economic decline and a visible sign that it is taking place, not least when our roads are riddled with potholes, our trains—whether they are Pacers or not—are unreliable and our housing stock is deeply inadequate. Public, not to mention private, investment has simply been far too low for far too long. It has too often not reached every part of the country, as my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington South (Sarah Hall) set out and as any rail user in Wales—particularly in Swansea, since the electrification does not reach our great city—will say. For this Government, growth in every part of the country is the goal, because Britain is scarred by deep regional inequalities, as my hon. Friend the Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Connor Naismith) set out eloquently. Our shared growth is the goal, and higher investment is a necessary, if not sufficient, condition for it. That is why we have ended the public investment boom-and-bust cycle, with £113 billion higher investment this Parliament, sustaining public investment at levels not seen since the 1970s. We will work side by side with our mayors, local leaders and devolved Governments to support all regions to achieve their potential, investing for the long term in the infrastructure, transport and housing needed to ensure that all parts of the UK benefit from growth. We are supporting empowered local leadership with the publication of the English devolution Bill, which my hon. Friend the Member for Congleton mentioned, and we are moving away from the short-termist, competitive approach to local funding so that we can instead support local leaders to drive growth in their areas. That includes implementing this month the first integrated settlements for Greater Manchester and the West Midlands combined authorities, ahead of the roll-out to other mayoral areas. We are investing in economic infrastructure across the country: we are committed to the trans-Pennine upgrade—the largest investment in northern rail for decades, with a further £415 million announced last week; we are backing West Yorkshire mass transit; and £4.8 billion for the strategic road network will deliver critical road schemes across the country. We are working with Doncaster council and the Mayor of South Yorkshire on their plans to reopen the south Yorkshire airport. There are places outside the north-west that will also classify themselves as being in the north and feel left out by this discussion, so I am getting some of them in too; we will set out further details of our plans for infrastructure across the whole UK in the 10-year infrastructure strategy, which is to be published in June. My hon. Friend the Member for Leigh and Atherton (Jo Platt) and the hon. Member for Hazel Grove (Lisa Smart) both rightly noted that we must care about a wider range of social factors, including deprivation, when making investment decisions. They are both right. My hon. Friend the Member for Congleton raised the issue of consultants—an issue that is emerging again in the review that is under way. Of course, while there are times when the use of consultants is value for money, more needs to be done to improve the capacity of local government in this area, and by national Government to ensure that their asks in that regard are proportionate and sensible. Other Members, including my hon. Friend the Member for Cramlington and Killingworth (Emma Foody), have made a powerful case for specific projects, particularly transport projects. I am sure that they will continue to bend the ears of each and every Department for Transport Minister, or, in some cases, the Mayor of Greater Manchester, where they are the appropriate decision maker, and I was glad to hear that everybody recognised that that should happen within important public spending constraints.

• 2 Apr 2025 · Green Book Review · Hansard source

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  My hon. Friend is completely right about both points. We need to address that, partly by providing decent funding for local government. Members will have seen that being laid out over the last few months since the autumn Budget, but it needs to continue. We need to make sure that, instead of setting out short notice, competitive pots between areas, we empower local leaders to decide the right answers for their areas—and that is exactly the approach we are taking. My hon. Friends the Members for Loughborough (Dr Sandher) and for Bolton North East (Kirith Entwistle) rightly noted that we need to consider the dynamic effects of investments—a point also powerfully made by Diane Coyle in recent years. I agree. There are questions about whether the implementation of the 2020 review has been followed through in that regard. I can reassure my hon. Friend the Member for Loughborough that the Department for Transport does use the same value for commuter time for all parts of the country. He may think it is not enough or that it is too much, but it is the same pounds and pence in every part of the country for commuter times specifically. I can reassure the hon. Member for Hazel Grove that the Green Book is not preventing this Government from delivering a step change in green investment. If the hon. Member for North Bedfordshire (Richard Fuller) had had time, I am sure he would have said that we are investing too much in green projects—or at least his party’s leader would. My hon. Friend the Member for Mid Cheshire (Andrew Cooper) noted that there are real dangers of overreliance on BCRs. He is right: decision-making should always be rooted in strategic objectives, or what he called, “What are we trying to achieve?” Closing regional gaps is exactly what our objective should be, and it is for this Government. The shadow Minister, the hon. Member for North Bedfordshire, took his life in his hands by listing the investments happening in his part of the south—broadly defined—although he may have saved himself by pointing out that maybe it was excessive. I look forward to his letter. As we have heard, investment matters, and it matters that all parts of this country get a fair hearing when it comes to infrastructure investment. This Government understand that, which is exactly why we are acting to support growth across all regions. Once again, I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Congleton on securing this debate.

• 19 Mar 2025 · Winter Fuel Payment · Hansard source

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  I will make some progress, and then I will give way further.

• 19 Mar 2025 · Winter Fuel Payment · Hansard source

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  On the question of savings, this measure will make savings, even taking into account the increase in take-up; the evidence of that is very clear. I will also just reflect on the right hon. Gentleman’s point that his party’s Government did not take up the opportunity that the Treasury presented to means-test winter fuel payments. The truth is that the last Government and the new Labour regime before that allowed pension credit to be eroded year after year by inflation. Since the period when he considered the measure, there has been over 50% inflation erosion, so the policy of the previous Government was to cut the winter fuel payment year after year. In real terms, I am afraid that is how inflation operates. We will not just carry out research; we will put the evidence that it provides into practice. I welcome suggestions from right across the House on what more we can do to drive take-up of pension credit.

• 19 Mar 2025 · Winter Fuel Payment · Hansard source

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  I must make some progress. I have taken lots of interventions, and at some point even your patience may start to run out, Madam Deputy Speaker. As hon. Members know, wider help is also available for pensioners. The warm home discount provides eligible low-income households across Great Britain with a £150 rebate on their winter energy bill. This winter we expect to find that over 3 million households, including over 1 million pensioners, have benefited. We have also set out plans to expand the scheme to cover a further 2.7 million households. We are providing £742 million in England to extend the household support fund for a further year, supporting all households, not just pensioners, with the cost of essentials. The devolved Governments will receive consequential funding through the Barnett formula.

• 19 Mar 2025 · Winter Fuel Payment · Hansard source

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  Go ahead.

• 19 Mar 2025 · Winter Fuel Payment · Hansard source

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  I will not. Pensioner poverty halved under the last Labour Government, but the Conservatives’ record was higher pensioner poverty—an increase of 300,000 people on their watch. We are not pretending that all the problems facing the country can be solved overnight, but we are honest that unless we tackle the big challenges and take some tough choices, they will not be solved at all. This is a Government raising the state pension, rescuing the NHS and delivering for pensioners every single day.

• 19 Mar 2025 · Winter Fuel Payment · Hansard source

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  All of us in this place should be slightly careful when talking about what is a highly sensitive subject. There is not robust analysis that can separate out different causes of excess mortality over the winter. [ Interruption. ] I will come on to answer the right hon. Gentleman’s question. If we look at the excess mortality data for this winter, we see that deaths are actually down. It is hard to separate out the effects of different measures— [ Interruption. ] No, this is an important point, because some hon. Members have been looser with their language than they might have wanted to be in past debates. We have seen the level of deaths come down this winter. There are lots of things—

• 19 Mar 2025 · Winter Fuel Payment · Hansard source

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  I congratulate it and I thank my hon. Friend, and probably hon. Members on both sides of the House, who I am sure have engaged with local charities in supporting their pensioners in the months that have gone by.

• 19 Mar 2025 · Winter Fuel Payment · Hansard source

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  I will return to the Conservatives’ policy, because I was just coming to the bold plans set out by the Leader of the Opposition to means-test the state pension. Apparently, she said, “that’s exactly the sort of thing” we “will look at.”

• 19 Mar 2025 · Winter Fuel Payment · Hansard source

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  I will if the hon. Member will tell me whether he plans to reverse that change in government.

• 19 Mar 2025 · Winter Fuel Payment · Hansard source

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  My hon. Friend proves that, while Conservative Members may be disappointed by the quantity of hon. Members behind me, that is definitely made up for in quality.