Torsten Bell MP: speeches 2025

Speeches

• 9 Jun 2025 · Winter Fuel Payment · Hansard source

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  This is a Chancellor who has brought stability and growth back to the economy and got wages growing once again; one who is driving investment in our public services, which will rescue them; one who has driven up public investment, which is crucial to showing that, once again, we are a country that can do the basics like building houses, filling potholes and the rest.

• 9 Jun 2025 · Winter Fuel Payment · Hansard source

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  I think I agree with my hon. Friend, in the sense that the tax system is a progressive tax system. That is the purpose for which it is being used in this case—to drive fairer outcomes for pensioners, and so that millionaires do not receive the benefit of a winter fuel payment but all lower and middle-income pensioners do.

• 9 Jun 2025 · Winter Fuel Payment · Hansard source

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  My hon. Friend raises an important point, which is that as economic growth returns, as it has over recent months, what matters is that it feeds through to rising living standards, particularly for poorer middle-income households. We need to be honest about this: the reason why wages did not grow under the last Government was that growth was not there. That is exactly what we need to make sure never happens again.

• 9 Jun 2025 · Winter Fuel Payment · Hansard source

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  I should have got out of the way, because my hon. Friend has given a direct rebuttal to what was said by the hon. Member for Hornchurch and Upminster (Julia Lopez). He is entirely correct in every detail of the important points that he has raised. A Labour Government investing in public services and ending austerity: that is what we will be hearing about in the House on Wednesday, and I look forward to hearing Conservative Members explain how they tried to support that spending while opposing every tax rise that was necessary to make it happen.

• 9 Jun 2025 · Winter Fuel Payment · Hansard source

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  I have just explained why we are making this announcement now: we want to ensure that the payments can be made in time for the winter. I have not hidden from the fact that last year we made the difficult decision to means-test the winter fuel payment, and that was the right choice to make, but we have listened, which is why we have announced a higher means test. I have directly answered the hon. Member’s question. This is important, but we do need to make some tough decisions. I know that the Liberal Democrats want a universal winter fuel payment, because they think it right to pay hundreds of pounds to millionaires, but I take a different view. I think it is that kind of wishful thinking that created, in 2010, a Liberal Democrat Government who promised to scrap tuition fees and ended up trebling them.

• 9 Jun 2025 · Winter Fuel Payment · Hansard source

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  My hon. Friend raises the important issue of the complexity of pensioner poverty. I will just give one example, which does not get mentioned in these discussions often enough. The growth rate—the value people are getting; the returns on every pound saved into a private pension—absolutely needs to be as strong as possible. Private pensions support the living standards of our pensioners. We need a pension industry that is focused on driving the best possible value for savers.

• 9 Jun 2025 · Winter Fuel Payment · Hansard source

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  It is the hon. Member who is talking bilge. Growth was the highest in the G7 in the first quarter of this year, interest rates have fallen four times, and wages have risen faster in 10 months than they did in 10 years under the Conservatives. What is happening is that we are sorting out their mess and putting Britain on a better track.

• 9 Jun 2025 · Winter Fuel Payment · Hansard source

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  My hon. Friend is absolutely right to say that faith in the system has been strained by the failure of the last 14 years—economic failure, public service failure and a failure of basic behaviour in politics—and that is what we need to turn around. She can tell her constituents that wages are growing, pensions are rising, waiting lists are falling and Britain is back.

• 9 Jun 2025 · Winter Fuel Payment · Hansard source

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  I am glad to hear about my hon. Friend’s previous role, and it is encouraging to see what charities representing older people have put out over the last few hours. As I said earlier, Age UK has said that this is the right thing to do and that it will bring much-needed reassurance for older people and their families.

• 9 Jun 2025 · Winter Fuel Payment · Hansard source

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  I could not agree more with my hon. Friend. We need to make sure that we are seeing child poverty fall and seeing extra help for families through free school meals, as well as through the breakfast clubs that she mentions. We also need to see more progress on pensioner poverty. That is why today we are saying that the threshold will be well above the incomes of pensioners who are in poverty. We do not want to see that poverty in the years ahead, which is exactly why we have made this change today.

• 9 Jun 2025 · Winter Fuel Payment · Hansard source

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  As always, I thank my hon. Friend for his well-put thoughts. He is absolutely right that pensioner poverty fell significantly, halving under the last Labour Government, before unfortunately rising by 200,000 people under the Conservatives, but we must not be complacent about the headline of falling pensioner poverty, because there are wider problems. [ Interruption. ] I am glad that the right hon. Member for Beverley and Holderness (Graham Stuart) welcomes it. The point I am coming to is that the stagnating incomes of working-age households under the last Labour Government moved across to stagnant incomes for pensioners and no falls in absolute poverty for pensioners under the Conservatives. There are subsets of pensioners, such as single pensioners, private renters and others, where we see lasting problems. It is important to see this in the round, but my hon. Friend the Member for East Renfrewshire (Blair McDougall) is absolutely right to say that we must move further on child poverty. He will have seen last week’s announcement on free school meals in England, with consequentials for the devolved Administrations, and we will come forward further with a child poverty strategy soon.

• 9 Jun 2025 · Winter Fuel Payment · Hansard source

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  I thank my hon. Friend for her question, and we always have interesting conversations. The Minister for Social Security and Disability will have heard the point she made. I gently say that the number of people receiving personal independence payments is forecast to continue to grow in every single one of the years ahead. That is after changes were set out by this Government. That important point sometimes gets lost in this debate.

• 9 Jun 2025 · Winter Fuel Payment · Hansard source

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  The hon. Gentleman is trying to put words in my mouth and he will not succeed. We have been clear. What I said in my statement is that we have come to the House today, before the summer recess, particularly to deal with the issue that he is raising, which is to provide absolute certainty for pensioners in England and Wales that they will be receiving the winter fuel payment this winter if their income is below £35,000. I agree with him that that is an important level of certainty to provide, and that is why I am here today.

• 9 Jun 2025 · Winter Fuel Payment · Hansard source

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  My hon. Friend sets out the principle case for means-testing the winter fuel payment very well indeed. I do not think that anybody with common sense thinks it right that millionaires receive each year from the Exchequer hundreds of pounds towards their winter fuel payments—people have recognised that for years. The Government are making the tough choice of saying that that we will no longer pay the winter fuel payment in that way.

• 9 Jun 2025 · Winter Fuel Payment · Hansard source

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  My short, sharp answer is that wages have grown in the first 10 months of this Government faster than in the first 10 years of the last Conservative Government. Interest rates have been cut four times. My hon. Friend is right to say that progress is being made, and that needs to continue. We need to ensure that more people feel the benefits of that growth in their pockets. The changes we are making to winter fuel payments today are one of those benefits. I can confirm that there will be a block grant adjustment exactly as she sets out.

• 9 Jun 2025 · Winter Fuel Payment · Hansard source

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  The hon. Lady’s question gives me the opportunity to praise the work done by all kinds of charities—in some cases through supporting pension credit uptake and, in the case of better funded foundations, providing direct support to pensioners. That is all very welcome. She is right to raise the wider question about sources of energy, but of course the winter fuel payment is a cash benefit that can be used for all kinds of energy.

• 9 Jun 2025 · Winter Fuel Payment · Hansard source

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  My hon. Friend always does a good job of not only representing Harlow, but remembering the economic progress that is being made. If anyone did not hear what he just said, he talked about rising growth, rising wages, interest rates falling and a country back on the path to success.

• 9 Jun 2025 · Winter Fuel Payment · Hansard source

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  This is why I am confused. What is the position of the Conservative party? Is it to support means-testing of the winter fuel payment—yes or no? Are you going to send out the shadow Chancellor to give a speech—

• 9 Jun 2025 · Winter Fuel Payment · Hansard source

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  Is the Conservative party going to send out the shadow Chancellor to give a speech in which I cannot tell whether he is apologising for Liz Truss, then come to this House the very next week and call for universal winter fuel payments? If the Conservatives are calling for universal winter fuel payments, they need to set out how that will be funded. This is a Government who have made their choice. It is right to means-test the winter fuel payment, because millionaires should not receive it. If the Conservatives do not know what their policy is on that, they will not know their policy on anything else.

• 9 Jun 2025 · Winter Fuel Payment · Hansard source

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  It is a fair question. All means-test thresholds do involve judgments—I have been completely honest with the House about that—and the judgment we have come to is that we want to see the vast majority of pensioners receiving the winter fuel payment. We want to be absolutely sure that no lower-income pensioners will miss out. That is what brought us to a £35,000 threshold. It also means that those on higher incomes—the richest 20% or 25% of pensioners—will not receive it.

• 9 Jun 2025 · Winter Fuel Payment · Hansard source

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  What Labour MPs want is a Labour Government who bring down child poverty, and that is what we will do. They want a Government who take responsible decisions, including difficult ones on tax and on means-testing the winter fuel payment, so that we can invest in public services and turn around the disgrace that there has been in Britain’s public realm for far too long.

• 9 Jun 2025 · Winter Fuel Payment · Hansard source

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  I always enjoy discussing technical details with the right hon. Gentleman. I set the position out clearly in my initial statement: means-testing is based on taxable income of £35,000, which answers his question.

• 9 Jun 2025 · Winter Fuel Payment · Hansard source

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  I can clear that up, in the case of the Liberal Democrats and Reform. They have the same policy—not for the first time, I might add—which is definitely to give winter fuel payments to millionaires. I have no idea what the position of the Conservative party is, and I have been here for an hour and a quarter. Actually, I have been in the House for the last 11 months, and I have still not been able to fathom what the Conservative party’s policy is, but I think it is to not learn any lesson from Liz Truss.

• 9 Jun 2025 · Winter Fuel Payment · Hansard source

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  Obviously, I agree with my hon. Friend in lots of ways, but it is really important to dwell on the point that he made at the beginning of his question. Through these changes, the vast majority of pensioners— over three quarters—will receive winter fuel payments this winter. We can give them the necessary reassurance that they do not need to do anything for that to happen, even if they are on a higher income.

• 9 Jun 2025 · Winter Fuel Payment · Hansard source

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  That is an absolutely crucial point and has been central to the work that we have done to decide on the policy. We want a system of automatic payment, so that pensioners do not need to do anything to claim the payments, and one that is automatic for those who have incomes above £35,000, so that they do not have to take action if they need to have the funding recouped, unless they choose to opt out. My hon. Friend is absolutely right: we need a simple system that supports pensioners.