Stephen Kinnock MP: speeches 2025

Speeches

• 12 Jun 2025 · Mental Health Bill [ Lords ] (Fourth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I can absolutely confirm that the Government’s understanding of the way in which the system must function is that, if any risk at all to public safety is perceived, that must be documented. The risk to others and self must be assessed and documented, and that then informs the care and treatment plan. It is a basic expectation of the professional management of a particular patient that any risk identified to public safety and protection must be in there. However, I take the hon. Gentleman’s point on whether or not it should be in the Bill. I will come back to him on that, because I would be rather surprised if it were not made very clear somewhere that that is a basic expectation; if it were not, that would obviously need to be looked at, but I am reasonably confident that it is. The hon. Gentleman asked whether the second opinion doctor would confirm that the checklist had been complied with by the approved clinician: yes, and that must be documented in the second opinion doctor’s certificate. He also asked whether we will support clinicians with statutory guidance. Yes, we will provide guidance on the delivery of the checklist in the code of practice. Question put and agreed to . Clause 11 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill .

• 12 Jun 2025 · Mental Health Bill [ Lords ] (Fourth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I was intending to come to the questions that the hon. Gentleman and others asked, but as he has asked that now, I can tell him that the revised detention criteria and definition of appropriate medical treatment do not exclude patients with uncertain treatment outcomes, as long as they have a psychiatric disorder. Treatment must offer a reasonable prospect of benefit, considering both its purpose and likely outcome. The introduction of the principle of therapeutic benefit is aimed at ensuring that care and treatment provided under the Act will promote recovery and facilitate patients to get better so that they can be discharged as soon as possible. That applies right across the board on the basis of the psychiatric disorder. I will now turn to clause 9. Sections 50 to 53 of the 1983 Act provide for the remission of prisoners or other detainees with severe mental health needs back to their prison or other place of detention; or, where relevant, direct their release where no effective treatment for the mental disorder can be given. Those provisions differ slightly from the detention criteria in the Bill, because in practice this cohort of patients may refuse to engage with treatment or behave in a disruptive manner such that treatment cannot practically be given. Clause 9 standardises the type of treatment to “appropriate medical treatment” for consistency with the rest of the Act, which will allow the therapeutic benefit changes in clause 8 to flow through to transfer decisions. This change has no other practical or legal effect and is technical in nature.

• 12 Jun 2025 · Mental Health Bill [ Lords ] (Fourth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for her expertise and am pleased to hear that she feels reassured by my remarks. It is absolutely the Government’s ambition to bring more consistency and clarity to this area. A number of hon. Members have raised issues around racial disparities; I plan to come on to that. That is a specific focus, I know, for her and other colleagues. More broadly, this is about ensuring that the CTO system is proportionate, well regulated and managed on the basis of a patient-centric system. We therefore wish to remove clause 6(3), as we do not think that it is necessary. It duplicates some provisions in the Bill or, in the case of the review periods, conflicts with existing renewal periods, and under the current drafting it is not clear how the two would interact. Where there are differences, the current provisions are more appropriate, for example in requiring a community clinician to be involved in all decision making. Let me move on to clause 6 in its entirety. CTOs allow individuals detained under the Mental Health Act to be discharged into the community, under specific conditions, to ensure continued treatment. CTOs aim to maintain contact with mental health services to provide support and prevent relapse. Patients on CTOs can be recalled to hospital under that Act in certain circumstances. The main purpose of introducing CTOs was to improve care for higher-risk patients and to enhance public safety. We believe that community treatment orders remain necessary in a small number of cases to ensure continued treatment and to protect both patients and the public. However, the independent review rightly noted that considerably more people than expected were being put on a community treatment order—about 5,500 people a year—and that there were racial disparities in the use of CTOs. Clause 6 therefore amends the community treatment order risk criteria in line with the new detention criteria set out in clause 5. It is now the case that, to be put on a community treatment order, the patient must be at risk of serious harm and there must be a reasonable prospect of therapeutic benefit for the patient.

• 12 Jun 2025 · Mental Health Bill [ Lords ] (Fourth sitting) · Hansard source

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  On the Opposition spokesman’s question about a specific timeframe, the wording of the clause— “as soon as reasonably practicable”— is a sufficient and fairly strong steer to the system that avoids the need to tie our hands with a specific timeframe. Consistency, training and monitoring are going to be important elements of the code of practice. We need to ensure that those questions are answered and that those are put in place. On the hon. Gentleman’s question about the CQC, we are grateful to Dr Penny Dash and Professor Mike Richards for their recommendations, which the CQC has accepted in full. We are greatly encouraged by the reforms it has made so far, and we particularly welcome the appointment of Dr Arun Chopra as the CQC’s first chief inspector of mental health, which will improve the voice of mental health patients and help to better uphold their rights. We are confident that those changes will ensure that the CQC is better placed to regulate mental services. Question put and agreed to. Clause 12 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clause 13 Medicine etc: treatment conflicting with a decision by or on behalf of a patient Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

• 12 Jun 2025 · Mental Health Bill [ Lords ] (Fourth sitting) · Hansard source

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  The classification of which part III patients the clause applies to is at the heart of the shadow Minister’s question about ensuring that everything is co-ordinated and we do not have conflicting reports and timeframes. I think that that classification is clear, but to recap, the changes will apply to the following patients detained under part III of the Act: patients who have been transferred from guardianship to hospital, and patients whose community treatment order has been revoked and more than six months has passed since their original hospital order was made. That classification is important. It is also important to bear in mind that the clause is all about maintaining the current frequency. We are not really injecting a new reporting rhythm; it is about maintaining the current frequency, but having that clarity around the classification of patients, as I outlined. Question put and agreed to . Clause 16 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill . Clause s 17 and 18 ordered to stand part of the Bill . Clause 19 Remote assessment for treatment Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

• 12 Jun 2025 · Mental Health Bill [ Lords ] (Fourth sitting) · Hansard source

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  The numbers that I gave the hon. Gentleman earlier were things that had happened, rather than gazing into the future and reading the tea leaves, but I will do as he asks, and I will ask officials to take him up on the point about the capacity of the legal and judicial system, in particular the tribunals. On the questions the shadow Minister asked about retrospective application, we are supporting the tribunal to make decisions about whether a person should continue to be detained or subject to a community treatment order by providing clear and consistent criteria that focuses on the need for there to be a risk of serious harm and a reasonable prospect that the patient is benefiting from their detention in order justify continued detention for treatment under part 3 of the Mental Health Act 1983. As has been said, that will apply to everybody who is currently detained. The key point is the balance of two things: harm to the patient him or herself and harm to others, and therapeutic benefit. Those will be the guiding lights of this entire process. I hope that I have managed to respond; I did not have a huge amount of time to take note of all the points, because there were not very many speakers on this clause. If there is anything I have not addressed, we can of course do so in writing. Question put and agreed to. Clause 7 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clause 8 Appropriate medical treatment: therapeutic benefit

• 12 Jun 2025 · Mental Health Bill [ Lords ] (Fourth sitting) · Hansard source

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  The content of the Bill, in this context, has been produced on the basis of engagement with the second opinion appointed doctor service and clinical experts. That was partly around the decision to shorten the period to two months, as that allows time for medication to take effect, so that the appropriateness of the medication for the individual can be properly assessed. Is that what the hon. Member is talking about—that there might be confusion about whether or not medication should continue to be administered?

• 12 Jun 2025 · Mental Health Bill [ Lords ] (Fourth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I will start by commenting on amendment 12, which was tabled by the hon. Member for Winchester. We do not consider the amendment necessary, as section 13(2) of the Mental Health Act 1983 already requires an “approved mental health professional” to consider all the “circumstances of the case” before making an application for admission, which could include the appropriateness of the setting. Clause 8 embeds the principle of therapeutic benefit into the Bill by providing a new definition of “appropriate medical treatment”. That requires that there must be “a reasonable prospect” of therapeutic benefit to justify detention for treatment, and that medical must be “appropriate in a person’s case”. We would expect a setting in which someone is going to be detained to be considered as a part of those considerations. The code of practice already states that patients should be offered treatment and care in safe, supportive and therapeutic environments, so that also addresses that point. I turn to amendments 44 and 45. We recognise the significant impact that childhood trauma can have on a person’s psychological wellbeing throughout their life. Mental disorder is defined in the 1983 Act as “any disorder or disability of the mind”, and that is already broad enough to include the impact of childhood trauma. Clause 8 requires decision makers to take into account “the nature and degree of the disorder”, what is “appropriate” in the person’s case and “all other circumstances” when considering whether medical treatment has a reasonable prospect of therapeutic benefit. That could include consideration of childhood trauma. Although we recognise that childhood trauma may be a factor for many patients, it will not be a factor for all patients. It is critical that consideration of appropriate treatment is tailored to, and reflects, individual experiences and needs. All treatment interventions should include the aim of minimising distress and promoting psychological wellbeing. As well as legislative requirements, it is vital that all aspects of care in in-patient settings should be trauma-informed and that patients are always put at the heart of effective, compassionate care. That expectation is set out in NHS England’s “Culture of care standards for mental health inpatient services” and will be further emphasised in the revised Mental Health Act code of practice. I turn to clause 8 stand part. The clause strengthens the concept of therapeutic benefit in the Mental Health Act to ensure that patients are detained for treatment or placed on a community treatment order only when there is a reasonable prospect they will benefit from their treatment. The current criteria for detentions under section 3 of the 1983 Act is that “appropriate medical treatment is available”, and the definition of medical treatment focuses only on the purpose of the treatment. In practice, that means that clinicians may not consider whether the treatment under section 3 will be effective. If we are going to deprive people of their liberty, it is vital that detention is of therapeutic benefit to them, regardless of whether the patient is detained for treatment under part II or part III of the Act, so the new therapeutic benefit criteria apply to both. Under the Bill, for treatment to be considered appropriate, there will need to be a reasonable prospect that the patient will benefit from it. The therapeutic benefit criteria will apply at the point of detention and renewal to patients detained under section 3 in part II of the Act, patients on a community treatment order when they are first subject to the order and at the point of renewal, and all part III patients. The clause also retains the definition of the purpose of “medical treatment” in the 1983 Act: “to alleviate, or prevent a worsening of, the disorder or one or more of its symptoms or manifestations.” A focus on therapeutic benefit will ensure that patients receive the care and treatment they need to support their recovery and enable discharge when it is safe for them to leave hospital.

• 12 Jun 2025 · Mental Health Bill [ Lords ] (Fourth sitting) · Hansard source

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  My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and we could go into the question he has just raised in a profound way, because the social determinants of ill health are such an important part of the picture. Many people in our communities are dealing with all sorts of incredibly challenging and traumatic issues in their lives, often driven by a whole range of social determinants. We have to recognise that there is a need to build capacity in the system as well. I am pleased that the Government reconfirmed in the spending review yesterday the 8,500 additional mental health specialists in the system, a mental health trained specialist in every school, 24/7 mental health hubs being opened around the country and £26 million being put into opening mental health crisis centres around the country. The fundamental drive of the Government is to move from sickness to prevention. We want to build a preventive state, and the mental health part of that is vital, for the reason my hon. Friend has just elucidated.

• 12 Jun 2025 · Mental Health Bill [ Lords ] (Fourth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I will do that. Question put and agreed to. Clause 13 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clause 14 ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clause 15 Electro-convulsive therapy etc Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

• 12 Jun 2025 · Mental Health Bill [ Lords ] (Fourth sitting) · Hansard source

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  It happened—it was real!

• 12 Jun 2025 · Mental Health Bill [ Lords ] (Fourth sitting) · Hansard source

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  May I say what a pleasure it is to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock? I found her contribution incredibly insightful. She is a tremendous asset to the Committee and indeed to the parliamentary Labour party, we are fortunate to have her with us on the Committee. The Opposition spokesman mentioned a number of cases, including Nicola Edgington and Valdo Calocane, so I will take the opportunity to express my condolences to those who were so terribly affected by those tragic events. We are in ongoing engagement with the families of Barnaby Webber, Grace O’Malley-Kumar and Ian Coates, and it is appropriate that we take a moment as a Committee to reflect on the terrible tragedy they have gone through and to express our condolences to them. The Opposition spokesman’s question was, broadly speaking, about risk and public safety. I will make a number of points on that. First, the clinical checklist does not bind clinicians to following the wishes of patients; it requires that clinicians consider them when deciding on the patient’s treatment, but, by definition, a checklist is not binding. If a preferred treatment is not clinically appropriate or feasible, clinicians must explain why and, where possible, discuss alternatives with the patient or their loved ones. The purpose of the checklist is to ensure that the patient’s wishes play a more central role in clinical decision making, as we are aware that that is not always the case. However, the checklist does not bind the clinician to the patient’s wishes, nor does it prevent the use of compulsory treatment. We recognise that compulsory treatment is sometimes necessary to get a person well again, including by managing the potential risk that they might pose to themselves or others. My other point is that there is not a binary choice between consulting and engaging with the patient, and enhancing and consolidating public safety; very often, the two go together. One of the learning points from the tragic Nottingham incident is that there was not enough consultation with Mr Calocane’s family. If there had been, there might have been opportunities to note his episodic behaviour and the fact that he was not always taking his medication. Had the family been better consulted, it would have enhanced public protection and safety. It is important that we do not say that family consultation and engagement with the patient are opposed to public protection—in fact, they are two sides of the same coin.

• 12 Jun 2025 · Mental Health Bill [ Lords ] (Fourth sitting) · Hansard source

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  The purpose of clause 16 is twofold. First, it seeks to maintain the status quo around when the responsible clinician must report to the regulatory authority on the patient’s treatment and their condition. Currently, the Mental Health Act requires that the responsible clinician give a treatment report to the regulatory authority when they renew the patient’s detention. However, changes to clause 28 that increase the frequency at which the clinician must renew a patient’s detention would have unintentionally increased the frequency of treatment reports for patients under certain sections. Clause 16 will prevent that, thereby avoiding unnecessarily placing additional burden on clinicians or the regulator. Secondly, the clause will give the regulatory authority the power to request a report on a patient’s treatment and their condition, where they are consenting to treatment. That will expand an important safeguard to individuals who are potentially vulnerable and may benefit from additional oversight. I therefore commend the clause to the Committee.

• 10 Jun 2025 · Mental Health Bill [ Lords ] (First sitting) · Hansard source

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  I can give the hon. Gentleman that assurance. We are moving to a nuanced position that is about defining where there are co-occurring conditions and where there are not. I think everybody recognises that that is, by definition, a complex process, so the training and the code of practice that go around it will be vital.

• 10 Jun 2025 · Mental Health Bill [ Lords ] (First sitting) · Hansard source

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  I do not know whether I will be able to answer the hon. Gentleman’s question in its entirety, because quite a lot of that is being led by my colleagues in the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government—in the English devolution Bill, for example. On the part of his question relating to the Department of Health and Social Care, we came to the view following the general election last year that NHS England was an unnecessary layer of bureaucracy. We think it is important that there is a clear line of accountability from the Secretary of State to Ministers, to ICBs, to trusts and to the system per se for delivery. That line of accountability was being blurred by NHS England, which is why we have removed it from the equation. The hon. Gentleman is right that there are a lot of moving parts, but, by definition, a reform agenda creates change and some turbulence. We believe that is the only way we will get the system to where we need it to be so that we can deliver the three big shifts in our 10-year health plan: the shifts from hospital to community, from sickness to prevention and from analogue to digital. Many of the questions he is asking will be answered in the 10-year plan. He does not have long to wait for that to be published; it is coming very soon. I reiterate that the principle underlying all of this is about empowering, devolving and giving agency to those closest to the communities they serve, because they are best placed to deliver. That all has to fit into the Bill, but the fundamental principle underpinning the Bill is the right one: it is about devolution, and about being patient-centric. The Bill deals with a cohort of people whose needs should drive the services that we design and deliver. Question put and agreed to. Clause 3 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill. Schedule 1 agreed to. Clause 4 People with autism or learning disability

• 10 Jun 2025 · Mental Health Bill [ Lords ] (First sitting) · Hansard source

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  I just need to turn to the question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley. On strong duties, the code of practice flows from the primary legislation and therefore has a statutory power. There is no stronger power to ensure that people with learning disabilities and autism get the treatment, service and support that they require. The system will have a statutory duty to ensure that that happens within the framework of the legislation. My hon. Friend is right that the transition from children’s to adult services is a major challenge. I am engaging with colleagues in the Department for Education about that to ensure that conversations about the transition happen upstream. We do not want a situation where an individual is looked after until they are 18 and then handed over without any prior conversations and engagement. We want the handover from one service to the other to be as seamless as possible. Our commitment to dynamic support registers will help in this context. They will be an important tool for understanding the needs of individuals who are at risk of admission and for getting that information into the system across the board prior to any detention. My hon. Friend also asked about carers who so often pick up the baton in the gaps in community provision. She is absolutely right to flag that. We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the millions of unpaid carers across our country, many of them dealing with extremely challenging family situations. The system would simply collapse without them, so she is right to pay tribute to those people.

• 10 Jun 2025 · Mental Health Bill [ Lords ] (First sitting) · Hansard source

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  There were a number of technical and drafting issues. The Public Bill Office ruled that the amendment, as drafted, was out of scope. One of the key concerns was about the unintended consequences of the relationship between physical disability and mental disorder. The drafting of the amendment could have caused confusion, because it could have started to bring physical disability into the scope of the Bill, which is clearly not what it is about. There were a number of technical and drafting issues, but I do not think that they are insurmountable. We can get to where we need to be, just not through a legislative vehicle.

• 10 Jun 2025 · Mental Health Bill [ Lords ] (First sitting) · Hansard source

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  It is absolutely a team effort. Sadly, when people have severe and acute mental health disorders, a multi-agency effort is often required to support them and to help them to get the treatment they need. The process should not be about trying to isolate people. We are keen to ensure that people stay in mainstream society and remain as integrated as possible, because that is often an important part of supporting their mental health condition. All of that means that local authorities, mental health professionals, social workers, and often children’s social care professionals or adult social care professionals are important in the process—it requires a team effort. That integrated approach will be really important as we build the community services that we want to see.

• 10 Jun 2025 · Mental Health Bill [ Lords ] (First sitting) · Hansard source

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  The red thread that goes through all those questions, from both my hon. Friend and the Opposition spokesman, is very much about how we are going to build a clear and strong understanding of what good community support looks like, and then build towards it so that we achieve the aims that we set out for ourselves. In many ways, that is a difficult question to answer in this Committee, because an important part of the answer will come from the consultation on the code of practice that will be launched as soon as the Bill gets Royal Assent. The Government believe passionately in making policy on the basis of evidence, so we need that consultation and input for the code of practice. We need a clear definition based on engagement with those who are at the cutting edge of delivering these services, so that we can define the new reality that we want to work towards, and then implement it step by step. I apologise to Committee members for the fact that in some ways that is a step beyond what we are doing here in scrutinising the Bill. We will, I hope, pass the Bill, and then it will get Royal Assent. From that day, we will be straining every sinew to get community services to where they need to be.

• 10 Jun 2025 · Mental Health Bill [ Lords ] (First sitting) · Hansard source

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  I thank the hon. Member for that intervention, not least because it gave me the opportunity to remember the constituency of the hon. Member for Dorking and Horley—please pass my apologies to him for forgetting that important point. He has been a tireless campaigner and I believe that we can find a way forward; this Bill is just not the correct vehicle for it.

• 10 Jun 2025 · Mental Health Bill [ Lords ] (First sitting) · Hansard source

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  It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Mr Vickers. I thank the many hon. Members who spoke on Second Reading. It is clear that in this place, as in the other place, the Bill will proceed in a collaborative and constructive spirit, with the single motivation of getting the reforms right. On Second Reading, we heard numerous powerful accounts from hon. Members arising from their personal experience of supporting family, friends or constituents with a serious mental illness, a learning disability or neurodiversity, or drawing on their own experiences to underscore the importance of the need for reform. I was heartened to hear from so many Members who set out the positive impact of the changes that the Bill will introduce, particularly the vital changes to ensure that patients’ voices are heard and that—as we would expect in any modern mental health service—the patient is at the heart of all decision making. In our manifesto, we committed to modernising the Mental Health Act 1983 to give patients greater choice, autonomy, enhanced rights and support, and to ensure that everyone is treated with dignity and respect throughout their treatment. I am proud that we included this critical Bill in our first King’s Speech, and I look forward to constructive engagement with the Committee on this important legislation. I will also take a moment to thank the Liberal Democrat Member, the name of whose constituency escapes me, and other MPs who have shone a light on the experiences of Fiona Laskaris and other families. No one should lose a child in that way. I thank Fiona for meeting me and I commend her tireless campaign efforts. The engagement that my officials and I have had with Fiona and the hon. Member has been incredibly valuable. Unfortunately, the Bill is not the appropriate vehicle to address those concerns, but I have committed to continuing engagement with Fiona and the hon. Member to further explore those issues and how we might tackle them.

• 10 Jun 2025 · Mental Health Bill [ Lords ] (First sitting) · Hansard source

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  The devolution Bill and the process of reorganising and restructuring are based on two really strong principles: that it is up to us through legislation to create the outcomes that we need to see delivered across the country and that there are clear standards and targets that we need to see met. But the implementation work needs to be done to deliver those desired outcomes and targets. Local authorities are empowered to do that, which is why we are seeing, for example, a lot of breaking down of ringfencing. The Government are keen to massively reduce the amount of ringfencing, because that has become a straitjacket for local authorities, integrated care boards and others in how they can best manage their portfolio of activities and deliver that devolved power and responsibility. The answer to the hon. Gentleman’s question is that we want to devolve. We are absolutely committed to decentralising and we believe that is an important part of modern governance. Of course, that has to be done within a framework of set targets and the development of community services that the Bill commits to. All of that will come together to enable those at the coalface, who are best placed to understand them, how to deliver those services to their communities.

• 10 Jun 2025 · Mental Health Bill [ Lords ] (First sitting) · Hansard source

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  I see. I am sorry; I had misunderstood the shadow Minister’s point. I thought it was about sharing data on particular patients, especially those who are crossing borders. The point about waiting lists is a more difficult issue. The Welsh Government have taken a view on how best to define them. For example, I know that ambulance waiting times have been quite controversial because there is a different definition in Wales to England. Many feel that the definition adopted by the Welsh Government sets the bar at a higher standard, which can then sometimes framed, in the hurly-burly of politics, as failing more than they would be if they had used a different metric, but they have chosen to use that metric. In the context of devolution, it is up to the Welsh Government to decide how best to evaluate the Welsh health service and its performance. I take the shadow Minister’s point on having the best alignment that we can, but when it comes to this UK Government, we will determine how performance is evaluated for England, and the Welsh Government will determine how best to evaluate performance for Wales. I think that the Welsh media, the UK media, this Parliament and the Welsh Parliament will then decide who is failing and who is succeeding.

• 10 Jun 2025 · Mental Health Bill [ Lords ] (First sitting) · Hansard source

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  I absolutely accept the point that there are deeply integrated communities on that border. A huge number of people live in England and work in Wales, or live in Wales and work in England. However, the fact of the matter is that health is a devolved policy area. It is, therefore, up to the devolved Administrations to determine how they want to measure the performance of their respective systems. It would be a violation of the principles of devolution if one Government in our United Kingdom were to dictate to another how they should evaluate their devolved policy areas—whether that is health, education or any other devolved area. I hope that I have responded to the best of my ability. Question put and agreed to. Clause 1 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clause 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clause 3 Application of the Mental Health Act 1983: autism and learning disability

• 10 Jun 2025 · Mental Health Bill [ Lords ] (First sitting) · Hansard source

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  The shadow Minister is tempting me to reveal the details of the workforce plan. While I have a huge amount of respect for this Committee, I do not think that it is where we will launch it. Absolutely, however, that is built into our thinking about the plan. There is a huge mental health challenge in our country, and those with acute and severe disorders and conditions which the Bill is designed to address are absolutely a part of that. A skilled and compassionate workforce is required, and I pay tribute to the amazing staff, mental health professionals and others who work in this area, often in incredibly challenging circumstances. We recognise and value that. The Bill does need to hook up with the workforce plan, and we are focused on that. On Wales and the risk of divergence, the shadow Minister makes an interesting point. I guess it is about ensuring that that there is devolution, but not divergence, in the sense that we have a framework here—much of the legal framework is reserved—but the delivery of mental health services is devolved. That balance has to be right, but it is something that the two Governments have been working on since devolution started in 1998. There is a fairly mature and sophisticated culture in the interface between the two Governments. The shadow Minister is right to flag that point, and I am more than happy to seek some assurances from officials and write to him. However, as things stand, I do not see any particular risks.