Stephen Flynn MP: speeches

Speeches

• 10 Oct 2024 · Great British Energy Bill (Third sitting) · Hansard source

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  The Minister is being generous with his time, as always. It is a scandal that people are in cold homes. Why is he supportive of the Government taking away the winter fuel allowance?

• 10 Oct 2024 · Great British Energy Bill (Third sitting) · Hansard source

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  I do not think that my Commons colleagues and I would suggest that the Government should have reduced energy bills within 100 days, but, my goodness, they have just gone up by 10%. The Minister says that it will not happen within a year or two years, so I would be keen, as would the public, to know broadly when he expects energy bills to come down. I do not say that from an angry position; I want the public to have a bit of clarity about his objectives.

• 10 Oct 2024 · Great British Energy Bill (Third sitting) · Hansard source

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  I rise to support amendment 24, which is broadly similar to the shadow Minister’s amendment 11. I am intrigued by the discussion that we have had, various aspects of which appeared to disagree with evidence we have heard. First, the hon. Member for Sheffield Hallam, if I picked her up correctly, made great play of the fact that GB Energy will reduce costs. Yet just a couple of days ago, each and every one of us was in the room with the chair of GB Energy, who was very clear that reducing bills “is not the scope of Great British Energy”. –– [ Official Report, Great British Energy Public Bill Committee, 8 October 2024; c. 6, Q5.] We can all watch the footage online, and we can all read Hansard. Secondly, the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar made the argument that the £300 promise was not actually a promise. Which is it? Will it or will it not reduce costs?

• 10 Oct 2024 · Great British Energy Bill (Third sitting) · Hansard source

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  I admire the Minister’s attempt to compare GB Energy, as supposedly a producer and generator of energy, with an organisation that could have sold electricity—

• 10 Oct 2024 · Great British Energy Bill (Third sitting) · Hansard source

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  I rise to speak briefly to new clause 1, which is grouped with amendment 8 and clause 1. It is very straightforward. It will be for Government Members to consider whether it is appropriate for the House of Commons to be in full knowledge and understanding of what the Government seek to do on energy efficiency. They must also consider whether the steps that the Government take in that regard should be reported to this House to ensure that we are fully abreast of the progress that the Government hope to make and how that meets the promises that they as individuals made to their constituents prior to the election. We as parliamentarians can collectively hold the Government to account on those promises and ambitions. In discussions on further amendments, we will talk in more detail about the promises that were made, and hopefully the Government might be minded to agree to include some of those promises in the Bill. For now, though, I think it worth while for Members to consider the role that this Parliament plays in scrutinising this Government in a constructive fashion.

• 10 Oct 2024 · Great British Energy Bill (Third sitting) · Hansard source

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  I am sure that the Minister, as an esteemed and well-versed parliamentarian, will understand that the voting system in this House means that should a Member choose not to vote in favour of something, that does not mean that they are against it, as he is outlining. I would hate for him to inadvertently suggest to the public that something is the case when it is not the case. As he knows, I of course welcome the set-up of GB Energy, but what I want to see is the scrutiny that the new clause would obviously provide.

• 10 Oct 2024 · Great British Energy Bill (Third sitting) · Hansard source

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  Of course it did not do anything, because the capital was not there to do that. If it had existed under the price shock that the Tories brought in for all of us, it would not have been able to function, in the same way that so many others in the private sector were not able to function. The Minister is trying to equate two things that are not comparable. When he rises to his feet, as he seems very keen to, perhaps he will confirm, first, when bills will fall by £300, and secondly—as he failed to do the other day—when they will come down at all. Before the Minister interrupted so pleasantly, I was pointing out to Government Members that the Conservatives made promises on energy that they failed to deliver. The public have high expectations—so get on and deliver.

• 8 Oct 2024 · Great British Energy Bill (Second sitting) · Hansard source

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  It was about the quantum that is available. You referred to IRA and the EU’s corresponding investment. The quantum for GB Energy is £8.3 billion over the course of five years, or £1.6 billion per year. Do you think that is sufficient to meet the objectives laid out in the Bill? Andy Prendergast: I think it is sufficient to make some of them and sufficient to make a difference; it is not sufficient to make as much of a difference as we would like it to, but compared with what we had beforehand, it is light years ahead of where we have been.

• 8 Oct 2024 · Great British Energy Bill (Second sitting) · Hansard source

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  My question has just been answered.

• 8 Oct 2024 · Great British Energy Bill (Second sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q Thank you, Andy: you have spoken very clearly. If I have picked you up correctly, you expressed a modicum of concern about the quantum that runs alongside the Bill to support its potential strategic investments. Could you perhaps elaborate on that more? Secondly, regarding clause 3(2)(c) on energy efficiency, is GMB of the view that GB Energy will bring down energy bills? Andy Prendergast: If I may take the second part first, one key thing the public want is to see lower energy bills. We know that. A potential issue with GB Energy being so popular is that, to a degree, not everyone knew what it was. Some people think it will lead to an immediate reduction in energy bills. We are likely to see that over a longer period of time, but GB Energy needs to make the investments in new technologies that we have failed to make and that we have too often missed the boat on. If you compare us to Denmark, for example, 14% of its exports are in green technology. That is because it has Ørsted, which is very similar to what we are trying to do with GB Energy, but ultimately it has had a long run into this and has stolen a march. What GB Energy belatedly allows us to do is potentially to steal a march on some of the new technologies that have not been exploited, with a view to supporting those supply chains in the important parts. Could you repeat the first part of your question, please?

• 8 Oct 2024 · Great British Energy Bill (Second sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q Thank you for coming in, gents; it is always nice to hear positive things about Scotland. In relation to some of the objects that are detailed in clause 3, I think we are all excited about the potential for the state to take a proactive role in the production of energy, but the Bill is quite clear that it is about “the production, distribution, storage and supply of clean energy…the reduction of greenhouse gas emissions…improvements in energy efficiency, and…measures for ensuring the security of the supply of energy.” SSE is investing £40 billion in clean tech over the next 10 years, and EDF is investing £50 billion or so. How far do you think £1.6 billion can go, in real terms, given the breadth of the different things the Bill seeks to achieve? Alistair McGirr: In reality, it is not going to be the sole investor that is going to deliver the clean energy transition. As you allude to, we have a significant investment programme that we would be keen to bring to fruition over the next 10 years or so. It is about how you best use the money that is available. Where can we accelerate the investment and crowd in the scale of investment that is going to be required? We may be talking about big numbers, and in EDF as well—not only here in the UK but elsewhere—but there will not be just one investor. If you look at the National Infrastructure Commission, for instance, they are projecting in the region of £25 billion to £30 billion of investment in energy infrastructure per year for the next decade. The scale of the investment is going to be much bigger than any single entity, be it GB Energy, SSE or EDF. Tristan Zipfel: Choices will need to be made—you cannot do everything with that pot of money—and it is really about identifying the areas where they will have maximum impact and where they will be most complementary to the effort of the private sector. It is not about displacing the private sector; it is more about covering the gaps and providing a boost to more investment in the sector. That is also the spirit of the agreement with the Crown Estate. Looking at offshore wind, what is currently the blocker for more investment? It is the timeframe that it takes to develop a project. The spirit of that agreement is to look at an early stage and make it easier for private investors to invest in projects that are more de-risked than they are at the moment. That is the right approach, in my view, and it could be expanded to the other technologies in the scope of GB Energy.

• 8 Oct 2024 · Great British Energy Bill (Second sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q GB Energy’s objectives as set out in the Bill make it quite clear that it is intent on becoming a producer, distributor, supplier and storer of energy, and to achieve that the Crown Estate will be absolutely crucial. Can you provide a little insight on the recent powers on borrowing provided to the Crown Estate, and how that will help you and GB Energy to meet the Bill’s aims? Dan Labbad: First, from the Crown Estate’s perspective —I know this is a little out of scope—we operate under an Act of Parliament and have an obligation to enhance the value of our portfolio nationally, on behalf of the country, into perpetuity. We must ensure that we, like any business, balance safe investments with more risky investments. There is no doubt that investing in the seabed in the way we are talking about is a higher risk activity than other things that we do. The increased borrowing powers do two things. First, they give us the capital throughput to do more—to accelerate and offer more. Secondly, because we know that we will have a line of credit, they allow us to make commitments. To use the Celtic sea as an example, as we move from what we envisage we can do about 12 GW to the reality of knowing that we can do that, we can then say to the market that we are committed to that leasing programme over the next 10 years. That is huge. From a developer perspective, they are not chipping away. For argument’s sake, let us say that we have 4 GW divided into three bits. You are talking about small gigawattage for companies of the scale of Equinor, for example. Being able to provide a pipeline where we know there is more to come means that they invest more—that is what that does. The other thing that comes with the borrowing powers is a broader investment remit, which allows us to turn our attention to supply chain opportunities and to support the industrial complex and jobs. Again, we have been restricted in what we can do there in the past, so that is fundamental. With regard to GB Energy, as I said earlier, the Crown Estate cannot do it all on its own. We need additional capital support, support with co-ordination and support with policy evolution. All those things are required, which is why the partnership is so fundamental.

• 8 Oct 2024 · Great British Energy Bill (Second sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q Thank you, Minister, for your candour so far. Clause 3(2)(c) refers to energy efficiency. Can you clarify to the Committee when GB Energy will reduce energy bills by £300? Michael Shanks: In the election, we committed that bills would come down. That figure was from independent analysts. We never said that bills would come down overnight; this is a process that will take time. GB Energy is part of delivering that. Without GB Energy, it would be harder to reach our targets by 2030 and to bring down bills for everyone. The reality with bills is that we remain far too wedded to fossil fuels; whether they come from the North sea or not, they are traded on the international market and we are subject to all the spikes, so reducing our dependence on unabated gas is critical. That is why I hope that all Members will vote to support GB Energy as part of the solution, including you.

• 8 Oct 2024 · Great British Energy Bill (Second sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q We have heard a great deal today, and rightly so, about the potential investment that GB Energy could make, whether that is in production, storage or generation and so on and so forth. I am particularly interested in the innovation space and in your experience with the Net Zero Technology Centre. Do you think that GB Energy’s focus should be on that, given the relatively small quantum that is available, or do you think that it should be broader and more focused on the de-risking of projects that might already be in the pipeline but might require assistance in relation to consent, planning or further capital investment? Myrtle Dawes: I suppose it would have to be towards the impact. Naturally, the budget we are looking at is well suited to innovation. The crowding in of money that we could get around that from investors—the impact that we could have by moving on a lot of projects—is quite significant. To take the example of floating offshore wind, we have some of the best wind resources in Europe and actually the world. We are sitting with one of the best supply chains for subsea in the world, because the North sea has been the harshest place in the world to do business. If we are ever going to get an effective floating wind business, with technology and jobs here in the UK, we need to start and move on it now. Not only is there an opportunity to get electricity here in the UK, but we are very close to the heartland of Europe, which is also looking for electricity and for hydrogen. We can do lots of things where the impact, if we were to move now, would be great. I have also worked on de-risking in major projects. They do need de-risking. I do not think that those in the supply chain are necessarily looking for a handout; they are looking for clarity, for investable business cases and for things where they can do the commercial work that they normally do. I can tell you that at the heart of this is technology that has to be sufficiently robust and reliable, and cheap enough that the product is cheap for the customer, who in this case is those who are using our energy. Olivia Powis: I support everything that has been said. I think GB Energy offers the potential for targeted investment and support in areas of the value chain, for new innovations and across the supply chain. In particular, we look at some capture technologies with lower TRLs that would benefit from some investment, enabling them to move forward from what we refer to as the valley of death, to be able to compete on the open market. There are many opportunities within the innovation space. Jack Norquoy: A big part of what GB Energy will do is the local power plan, to which a sizeable contribution of that £8 billion allocation has been made. You raised a point about how the rest of it will be spent; I echo the comments that have been made about innovation. There will be a need for GB Energy to have a balance. That has been outlined in what we have seen so far, in that there will be a need to generate revenue in order for there to be a public return, but it is important that that money be targeted at high-risk areas where we need the longer-term strategic view to support innovation. Sectors in Scotland such as the marine energy sector would very much welcome that targeted support. So we have a balance between GB Energy being willing to take more risk than perhaps we have seen so far and some investment going towards the local power plan, developing the stable revenue that we will want to see coming through.

• 8 Oct 2024 · Great British Energy Bill (Second sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q In terms of the opportunities that exist in the Bill and GB Energy, would the appetite of your members for projects related to production or the generation of net zero energy be increased by the quantum that is available as part of GB Energy, which is relatively small in real terms—£1.3 billion per year, less the money that is already likely to be allocated to local plans and community projects—or by the ability to de-risk? If it is the latter, could you expand on your earlier answer? David Whitehouse: I think we all recognise that on the journey to net zero a huge amount of investment is required to get us there—the Climate Change Committee says that £1.4 trillion is required. The lion’s share will come from the private sector, so GB Energy will help, but actually we need to create the conditions more broadly where we have investment in the energy sector that turns into enduring value. That is what we need to deliver, and we can talk about that. Where GB Energy can play a role is in those opportunities that would not otherwise have happened, such as through the opportunity to de-risk projects. If we look at things such as carbon storage, de-risking and understanding the nature of the carbon stores and using that as an opportunity to buy into future investments is a role that GB Energy can and should play. We have spoken about connectivity with Europe. Scotland and the UK’s future will be hydrogen pipelines to Europe, and there is a role for a state player to crowd in private sector money make those projects happen. We often talk about GB Energy as an investment vehicle but, if we work in partnership with industry, it should be much more than that. Getting money is difficult, but it is not always the most difficult thing that we have to do, so it is about unblocking the other issues. There are 13 years from consent to the delivery of the first electrons. It is in those areas where we can have a state player sitting with industry that understands our challenges and what we need to do. We often talk about GB Energy as an investment vehicle, but it should have a bigger vision than that.

• 8 Oct 2024 · Great British Energy Bill (First sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q Is it within the Bill though? Mike Clancy: I suppose my response would be, “How could it be within the Bill?” Mika Minio-Paluello: Theoretically, the Bill could say, “We will cap energy bills at a certain level,” but it would not be part of GB Energy’s role to cap energy. Mike Clancy: You cannot divorce this from the fact that GB Energy will operate in a still-privatised energy asset environment, and consequently there are much broader questions about how bills are composed, the energy mix and so on. Those issues are not in the Bill, and I am sure the Chair would stop me going down that path. But I was the field official in energy, so if anyone wants to talk about that we can spend hours on it and the construction of the energy sector. I understand why you asked the question, but GB Energy is one entity within a much broader firmament of energy assets, owned in different ways. Mika Minio-Paluello: Does the Bill enable the creation of a company that can, over time, grow to be something like EDF, Ørsted or Vattenfall? EDF brought bills down significantly during the energy crisis, when we had soaring bills. Does the Bill create the capacity to do that? Yes. Mike Clancy: Often the focus in energy policy is on retail, because it affects domestic consumers more than wholesale when things are going a certain way. The biggest thing for us—we represent engineering and science staff—is where the generation is going to come from, what is going down the pipes and how we ensure that consistently and for the long term so that we have energy security and energy down those lines at a competitive price. Clearly, a public sector champion in that regard can be a significant contributor to changing the trajectory of energy prices and giving us indigenous energy security.

• 8 Oct 2024 · Great British Energy Bill (First sitting) · Hansard source

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  Again, just for clarity—because you pushed back and said that EDF brought down bills—there is nothing in this Bill, unless you tell me otherwise, that says that GB Energy will do likewise. Is that correct? Mika Minio-Paluello: I do not think it forces GB Energy to do likewise, but I doubt the legislation that set up EDF forced it to do that. I think it probably set up EDF as a company to operate and gave it freedom to act. The question for Members is: “What do we do to enable the UK to finally be on a par with our peers elsewhere?” Does this create a basis for that? Yes. Then, yes, can you please push and hold the Government to account—

• 8 Oct 2024 · Great British Energy Bill (First sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q But, for clarity, the things that have been spoken about in this context are not in the Bill. Similarly, is there anything within the Bill that gives you certainty that energy bills will be brought down by £300? Mika Minio-Paluello: Bringing energy bills down is a complicated process that depends on lots of things, including—

• 8 Oct 2024 · Great British Energy Bill (First sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q You have spoken eloquently and rightly about the energy transition, jobs, skills and STEM, but I have double checked and the Bill contains absolutely no detail about any of those things. Is that correct? Mika Minio-Paluello: My understanding is that it is not currently in there, but it will be contained in the statement of strategic priorities. There are questions about how much should be added in. We understand that the logic is that the Bill will create an enabling vehicle—it will enable GB Energy to act and do things—so is it useful to put in many, many limitations? Probably not, because adding in too much detail will slow it down. Is it, on the other hand, useful to put in a clause that says that the statement of strategic priorities should have regard to a just transition and job creation? That could be a consideration.

• 8 Oct 2024 · Great British Energy Bill (First sitting) · Hansard source

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  If there is still time, I am happy to come back.

• 8 Oct 2024 · Great British Energy Bill (First sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q Thank you both for coming. In relation to that specific point, which is also in the written evidence that you provided, you referenced Ørsted, EDF, Vattenfall and Statkraft. GB Energy will be capitalised with £1.6 billion per annum. How does that equate to the delivery of projects similar to those of Ørsted, EDF, Vattenfall and Statkraft? Is that not quite a leap? Mika Minio-Paluello: I mean, you would not build an Ørsted in one, two or five years. ESB, the Irish state-owned company, moved into offshore wind gradually, step by step. It took it about four or five years to get well inthere. We think we should aim to get there by 2040 or 2045. You start somewhere, so you start with the capitalisation. We can all talk about whether the Government could access more borrowing, and the fiscal heritage, but you can start with that. It will not be on that scale by 2030, but it can put in place the mechanisms and a plan so that by 2040 or 2045, we are a more powerful and richer country because we are finally on a par with our peers. Mike Clancy: We have made some commentary about the treatment of public debt and this space in relation to GB Energy, and whether the debt rules, which are subject to current debate, should be adjusted so that public investment companies are appropriately excluded because they will provide a return to the Exchequer. We are also interested in the structure of GBE arising from the Bill in this regard. Clearly it is going to be a public investment vehicle, but if it is going to be an operator like Ørsted and so on—obviously we heard Juergen talk about the nature of the assets that it may bring under its control—these are significant engineering assets and propositions. If you are going to build a company in that respect, you had better start now, and you had better think about the labour markets in which you are going to obtain the skills, which are very competitive. I could keep you all morning talking about how that will not happen if it is constrained by public sector pay constraints. A serious point is that there is more than one pathway for this entity, and if it is going to have a dual pathway, it needs to be thought through pretty early. That is because realising the floating offshore wind proposition—whatever sea it may be in—is a very significant endeavour, requiring an operational, management, engineering, construction, planning, and indeed operating capacity that need to be thought about right now, at the Bill stage.

• 8 Oct 2024 · Great British Energy Bill (First sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q In that context, when do you expect GB Energy to bring down energy bills, as promised? Juergen Maier: The only way to get energy bills down and to get greater energy security is to get more renewable energy on the grid. We have to keep reminding people that the reason why energy bills went up was not renewable energy; it was a global oil and gas price crisis. Every megawatt and gigawatt of renewable energy that we put on the grid will help to bring bills and prices down. The exact mechanism by which that happens is, of course, a matter of policy—how you decide to bring those bills to the consumer. That is not the scope of Great British Energy; it is not the scope of the Bill, either.

• 8 Oct 2024 · Great British Energy Bill (First sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q Again, you have spoken very eloquently about the opportunities that may or may not exist under GB Energy, particularly with regard to the risk appetite that needs to be there. You have perhaps delved into some areas in relation to planning and Crown Estate; where they sit within the devolved competency of the Scottish Parliament. I will not ask you to comment on that because that would be deeply unfair, but what you and others have done is delve into the strategic priorities and what you think they could be. Do you think it is helpful or unhelpful that at this juncture we do not have a full understanding of what those strategic priorities are, given that the Bill is going through in its current form? Shaun Spiers: I think the more that can be done to set out the strategic priorities, the better. I do not think it necessarily needs to be in the Bill. The explanatory statement and the introductions and so on I think do give a reasonably good steer on what the strategic priorities are, but obviously this body is being set up at pace. The more clarity there is on what it is going to do, the better. I would not set unreasonable expectations of a body that is being set up really quickly, with a pretty clear short-term aim of 2030 power decarbonisation and of supporting that. However, in the longer term the priorities clearly need to be set out. Ravi Gurumurthy: The NESO will be producing its plan in October, and you have then got the next carbon budget in February, so the actual pathway to 2030 and to 2050 will start to become even clearer in the coming months. It will need to be flexible, however. There will be technologies which emerge that shift our sense of what to focus on. You need priorities, but you do need quite a lot of flexibility in this system. Marc Hedin: I made the point, I think, at the very beginning that we need a very flexible scope because there will be challenges to the energy transition. We need room to adapt. If this vehicle is to facilitate the energy transition, we need that scope to be relatively broad. I did mention a couple of safeguards, more like accountability, and I think that is still reasonable to ask. However, in terms of strategic priorities, I think the scope is broad enough and makes sense.

• 8 Oct 2024 · Great British Energy Bill (First sitting) · Hansard source

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  Am I okay to ask one more question, Chair?

• 8 Oct 2024 · Great British Energy Bill (First sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q Thank you for joining us this morning, Mr Maier. May I go back to your answer to a previous question? I do not think you quite clarified how many jobs would be in Aberdeen. If I picked you up correctly, you said that you expected those jobs to be operational engineering jobs. Could you elaborate on that? Could you give a steer or a little clarity on what you expect GB Energy to do in practice? The Bill states that the Secretary of State will provide clarity subsequently, but there is a lot of discourse in the public domain about what GB Energy will actually do. Juergen Maier: Indeed. You are right that I did not answer your first question directly. The reason, obviously, is that we have not been able to put a direct number on it yet. It will be in the hundreds; it may eventually be 1,000 or more in the HQ. You will now say, “That is not going to help manage the energy transition,” but the reason is that the large numbers of people we will be helping to employ will be in the supply chain. If we look at some of the numbers already, by the end of the decade 100,000 people will be employed in offshore wind. I hope that many more of those will be in floating offshore wind, and floating offshore wind will happen off the coast of Aberdeen and indeed the whole east coast of the United Kingdom. The jobs will be the sort that work with supply chains and the private sector to determine how we will enable floating offshore wind. What is the technology? What are the innovation challenges? What about project-managing the schemes, helping them to get through planning permission and making sure that they get on the grid? There will be all those sorts of questions. I very much see the role of Great British Energy as that of an enabler to get such new technologies on to the grid, and as that of an investor and co-investor. It will take quite a team of people and skills to achieve that.