Sarah Bool MP: speeches 2025

Speeches

• 30 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Sixteenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I want to build on the shadow Minister’s point, because I raised that concern in one of the previous sittings. I want to refer to the words of the King’s counsel, Jason Coppel, of 11KBW chambers, in relation to this point. In an article published online, he notes that TPD2, the tobacco products directive, “lays down various requirements concerning matters such as ingredients, emission levels and packaging which must be satisfied by tobacco products, vapes and other smoking products if they are to be marketed within the EU. Member States are not permitted to prohibit or restrict the placing on the market of products which satisfy these requirements (article 24(1)). However, TPD2 does not seek to harmonise domestics sales arrangements for these products and positively encourages Member States to introduce age limits on their sale (recitals (21) and (48)). The key issue is therefore whether a GSB”— a generational sales ban— “would be a selling arrangement or age limit which is compatible with TPD2 or a gradual prohibition on the placing on the market of tobacco and other products which meet the product requirements of TPD2, which would likely be incompatible with TPD2. There are, on any view, powerful arguments in favour of the latter view. The age limits referred to in TPD2 were limits on the sale of tobacco products to minors, not to adults. Unlike an age limit, the intention and effect of a GSB is to phase out the use of tobacco products entirely. It is equivalent in effect to an absolute ban on the sale of tobacco products, but a ban which is introduced very slowly, with an extent which increases day by day. If that analysis is correct then cl 68-69 of the Bill, if enacted, would likely contravene TPD2 regardless of whether they can be established by the Government to be a proportionate restriction in the interests of public health. It is reasonable to infer that the positions adopted by the Danish and Irish Governments were dictated by arguments along these lines. If a GSB would indeed contravene TPD2, it is relatively clear, from a series of decisions of the Northern Ireland courts applying the Windsor Framework, that TPD2 would have direct effect so as to override the GSB, pursuant to section 7A of the European Union Withdrawal Act 2018.” I appreciate that that is heavy legalese, but it is important to stress Mr Coppel’s point. I do not feel that I had a sufficient answer from the Minister last time, so I would appreciate it if he could confirm that that has been considered.

• 30 Jan 2025 · Avian Influenza · Hansard source

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  Scientists at the University of Glasgow found last month that avian influenza can spread to horses without any symptoms. Will the Minister clarify how the Government are monitoring the spread of the virus among other species?

• 30 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Fifteenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  The hon. Member for City of Durham has proposed a very interesting concept. Although she may not be pressing the new clause to a vote, it is interesting to discuss the concept in principle, so I thank her for tabling it. Essentially, the proposal is that the Secretary of State would have to consult on a scheme that would regulate prices and limit profits, and then they would calculate the tax: “by reference to sales or estimated sales of those products”. That is an interesting concept, but I wonder whether it could be deemed anti-competitive. I know that the ultimate aim is to close down the tobacco companies, and that is essentially what the measure would drive towards, but in the interim, when many people will still be legally able to smoke, what arguments might the companies make in that regard? The Chancellor says she is pro-business and is encouraging business. The tobacco companies are perhaps not the businesses she has in mind, but the provision would have wider repercussions that could flow into other areas.

• 30 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Fifteenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I find high-strength nicotine pouches incredibly concerning, as I had not been aware of their existence. There is a Member of the House who happens to use them; I had simply thought that that hon. Member was partaking of mints, but that is clearly is not the case. This is an interesting area. As the shadow Minister has noted, pouches are discreet. When they are aimed at children, it is hard for parents to know what their children are taking, so they are particularly pernicious in their effect. Many hon. Members will know that I often go back to social media. Apparently one of the main brands is called Zyn and is now trying to promote the trending of “Zynfluencers” via Instagram. The aim is to appeal to the younger generation. I do not think that that is acceptable, especially when some of these pouches are of a strength of up to 100 mg, as the shadow Minister mentioned. Like the shadow Minister, I ask whether the Minister has any thoughts about whether the cap should be reduced further, because 20 mg may not be the right number. Given that the impact of long-term use of these pouches, which I happened to raise with the Member I saw taking one, includes mouth sores, gum irritation and oral cancer, I think we probably need a further discussion about them. I welcome any comments that the Minister may have.

• 30 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Fifteenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I thank my hon. Friend for her explanation. I did not know that it was cork that gave the colouring, so that is another benefit of her history lesson. We are aware that the previous Conservative Government took strong action to try to remove plastics in the environment. We introduced the UK-wide prohibition on the use of plastic microbeads in the manufacture of some cosmetic and personal care products, such as face scrubs, toothpastes and shower gels, where the little beads could wash into the sea. That was one of the reasons why those beads were banned. It is therefore an interesting argument to make that we should ban cigarette filters with their plastic content, because we do not want further pollution of our beautiful natural environment. The World Health Organisation has advocated for banning those filters. As my hon. Friend compellingly said, there are no health benefits to such filters being used—which I had not appreciated. One would assume that those filters would have helped, but it is interesting that they do not. I note that the UN General Assembly is also advocating for a ban on filters, particularly given their plastic content.

• 30 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Fifteenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I agree. That is a good conclusion to have worked through, which we perhaps had not had the opportunity to turn our attention to. I would like to see a provision of this nature. I am intrigued, as my hon. Friend said, by why the Minister has not included filters in the outright initial ban. That should be considered, perhaps on Report. As a general principle, we need to look after our natural environment. A ban on the plastic contained in cigarette filters would surely be a sensible move. As my hon. Friend has said, however, the filters do not achieve what anyone was hoping and do not make smoking safer. I therefore think we must have further discussion. Will the Minister give a little more explanation on some of the rationale and whether the measure can be included in the Bill?

• 30 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Fifteenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I concur with the rationale and explanation that my hon. Friend has just given. The question about how we will deal with snuff and other products in the House is an interesting one, because we do not want to see any of our Doorkeepers perhaps being criminalised for having something on the estate or how they have supplied it. I know that earlier discussions focused on the BBC—

• 30 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Fifteenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I am almost glad that my hon. Friend the Member for Windsor is not here, because at this point we would probably be launching into a much longer and more protracted debate, so we are lucky in that regard— [ Interruption. ] I am being chastised by the shadow Minister. We should consider that interesting point and its knock-on impact because, in common with the hon. Member for City of Durham, I have concerns about the illicit tobacco market. I very much agree that we should be moving to a new system of preventive medicine. As I have mentioned, I have type 1 diabetes, and I want to see a greater and earlier use of technology to prevent long-term problems. The new clause provides a useful point for discussion, and I thank the hon. Lady for tabling it.

• 30 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Fifteenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  The hon. Member for Dartford has now arrived, so perhaps the Minister would be so kind as to allow him to intervene.

• 30 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Fifteenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I agree. One of the things that I have most enjoyed over the last few weeks and months has been learning all the different traditions and the meanings behind them. Having done my original degree in history, I appreciate all that, so the many history lessons that we have had from the shadow Minister in the course of these debates have been much appreciated by me. It is interesting that that is why clause 159 has been put in place, but I would like the Minister to expand on how he thinks that it will work in practice. Will we see the removal of the snuffbox? How will that work in the future?

• 30 Jan 2025 · Support for High Street Businesses · Hansard source

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  13. What steps he is taking to support high street businesses.

• 30 Jan 2025 · Support for High Street Businesses · Hansard source

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  Our small businesses are the lifeblood of our high street and often give young students their first opportunity for a job on a Saturday or in the holidays. However, one of my local small business owners says that she can no longer afford such roles because of the increase in employer national insurance contributions and changes to business rates, among other things. What will the Government do to support our young people into jobs when small businesses are left in that awful position?

• 28 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Fourteenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I concur. Cancer Research UK followed a similar argument in written evidence to the Committee: “It is important that any measures to restrict vaping do not exacerbate harm misperceptions, and do not deter or reduce accessibility of people who smoke from quitting with the use of e-cigarettes.” I put it on the record that I very much agree with my hon. Friend.

• 28 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Fourteenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  To follow on from what the shadow Minister said, the Minister said that performers who smoke during performances would not be a problem because the second-hand passive smoking would not be big enough of an issue. But why can a cigarette be smoked as part of a performance, yet a cigar cannot be smoked once a year by a single person? Why is smoking allowed for this artistic purpose, yet it is not allowed for someone who would like to smoke a cigar recreationally?

• 28 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Thirteenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I take the Minister’s point, but there is only a requirement to consult, so actually, completely unlimited powers have been given to make this change. We are trying to argue that we want the spaces to be clearly defined. It is important and right that we should come back to Parliament to make a change at a future point, if we want to extend the Bill further. But that will only be consultation, based on the current drafting, and a change could be pushed through regardless. The Labour party says that it is trying to support and back hospitality, so making this absolutely clear on the face of the Bill at this point will give hospitality the reassurance that it needs. I cannot see why there is any objection to more clarity, rather than overarching and wide powers. We are binding the hands of future generations and telling them that they cannot smoke and cannot vape—that right has gone—and then, on the other hand, we are saying, “I cannot bind the hands of my future successors”. We need reassurance and clarity for hospitality, and that is not in the Bill.

• 28 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Thirteenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I thank the hon. Member for clarifying that point. Many Members would prefer that local councils were dealing with potholes rather than advertising those different spaces, but I thank him for his amendment and his proposal.

• 28 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Thirteenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  Taking on board what you said, Mr Pritchard, I just want to build on the point that my hon. Friend made about enforcement—I always talk about enforcement in practice. I want to know how rules will be advertised between different jurisdictions. I think we will end up spending an inordinate amount of money on trying to run a campaign that could have been better spent on helping with smoking cessation or on more practical measures.

• 28 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Thirteenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I respect the points made by the hon. Member for Cardiff West, because I understand that we do not want any unintended consequences. However, I would counter that by saying that although we perhaps need better definitions—that may be something we can consider—clause 136, as drafted, is incredibly wide, and any of the assurances that have been given to hospitality are merely words. There is absolutely no carve-out for the hospitality sector as this stands. As much as I think the Minister is honourable in his intentions, unfortunately, we all know that we can go only on the law in front of us in black and white, and there is currently no security for the hospitality sector in this regard. We need to be incredibly clear about this with the hospitality sector, and we need the exclusion. One of the bigger concerns is that if people are not able to smoke—perhaps in a pub garden—it will force them into their homes, where they are actually more likely to drink and smoke more because they are not within that limited capacity of being out in public. We have to think about what the dangers are. Are we actually forcing people to take up worse habits in their private residence than if we allow them a little bit of flexibility in an open space? I have a question about NHS properties generally. I appreciate that we want smoke-free places and that one wants to go into hospital and walk past people smoking, but I worry about those who have an addiction. Where do they go if they need to smoke, as they would if they are going through a process of cessation? What ends up happening as a result of all these provisions is that the smokers will just be forced down the road away from the property, but that has not really addressed the issue. We have just pushed the problem a few metres away. We need to think in the round about how we best achieve our aim, how we deal with addiction, and how we clean up the hospital environment in a balanced and proportionate way. Perhaps the Minister has some other ideas, but I do not like the idea of just pushing some smokers down the road, rather than dealing with the issue at hand.

• 28 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Thirteenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I absolutely agree, and my hon. Friend makes a powerful point. I would like us to consider this issue when we look at whether to take these proposals any further. I cannot see how we can ensure in practice that everyone knows what is happening without there being a national campaign.

• 23 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Twelfth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I will make two points. First, I understand where my h F the shadow Minister is coming from in terms of the questions about enforceability and when these things come into effect. Clause 124(1)(a) states that for tobacco products: “A person commits an offence if…the person is party to an agreement (entered into at any time),” which will obviously be consistent; but clause 125(1)(a) states that a person commits an offence only if “the person is party to an agreement entered into on or after the day on which this section comes into force”. I can see the point that the Minister is making. Will we see a rush of sponsorship agreements on vaping coming in in the next few weeks before we get this Bill on the statute book? That is a legitimate question to raise, and we should all be aware of that possibility. Generally, it is important that we tackle and take on seriously the role of sponsorship. I do not think that I am alone in recalling the impact of Pepsi and its sponsorship of the Spice Girls when I was young. Its campaign aimed at Generation X had 92 million cans with the Spice Girls on them, which obviously had a big impact. I will be honest and say that I loved the Spice Girls, but seeing anything like that has a massive impact when we are children, so tackling it is absolutely right. Pepsi sponsors the National Football League, Coca-Cola sponsors the Olympics and I think Carlsberg has always sponsored Liverpool FC, so we can see that brand alignment.

• 23 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Twelfth sitting) · Hansard source

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  This is just off the top of my head, but on a technical point about clause 125(1), in terms of vape sponsorship, a person will be guilty of an offence only after the provision comes into force. I appreciate that there is the two months, but they also have the window of time while the Bill goes through Parliament, so they potentially have a couple more months for that. I do wonder about how this is going to work in practice, because, in theory, a company that is offering sponsorship—if they enter into that agreement now—will not be in trouble for the next couple of years for doing that, yet under preceding clauses anyone who designed or printed material for any of those sponsorship deals would be guilty of an offence. We suddenly have a position where, potentially, the sponsors themselves are not guilty of an offence while the actual designers, and those who are publishing the sponsorship material, are. That is an interesting nuance.

• 23 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Twelfth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I understand that two-month period, but does it also apply to the earlier provisions on the creation of offences relating to publication? If we had some alignment there, neither party could potentially be in breach. That is merely a technical point, however. The other point—perhaps for when the Minister goes back to the Department—is about force majeure, which the hon. Member for Cardiff West mentioned and which I would like more investigation into. Force majeure concerns acts of God, or something unexpected. I think lawyers would argue that a Government Bill was expected and foreseen, so there would have to be some other form of break clause or right. This debate is getting far too technical for this forum, but it is perhaps something that the Minister can take away.

• 23 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Twelfth sitting) · Hansard source

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  That is a possibility. It always depends on the terms of the contract itself, but in theory they could agree a 10 or 15-year contract and sponsorship deal. It is interesting that this could be one of the overhangs that we see, so we have to be aware of it going forward.

• 23 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Twelfth sitting) · Hansard source

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  That is a very interesting point, and it goes to the heart of commercial contracts. Money talks and money is very powerful, but we must be careful about that when establishing these rules, because the legal system will always find a way to argue. I can imagine some big cases being brought in relation to this if we are not careful.

• 23 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Eleventh sitting) · Hansard source

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  It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Roger. I just want to go through something again. Obviously, the purpose of part 6 of the Bill is to establish the rules about advertising, which I completely understand. It sets out that it is an offence for a person in the course of business to publish an advertisement, to promote products, to design advertisements, to print an advertisement, to distribute an advertisement, to cause publication, design, printing or distribution in the UK, or to provide an internet service by means of which an advertisement is published or distributed.