Rebecca Paul MP: speeches

Speeches

• 12 Feb 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

  More

  I completely agree with my hon. Friend. As always, he makes the point powerfully.

• 12 Feb 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

  More

  Not yet; I am finishing my point. It has a clear legal meaning, and we must not put the blinkers on. I would suggest to Members that if they have an issue with the word “suicide”, they remember that this will actually result in the end of someone’s life. We must not be squeamish about using correct and accurate terminology in what we describe. The second point made by my right hon. Friend the Member for North West Hampshire is a really good point: it is a fine line and it is really difficult. I have proposed this amendment not because I want “encouragement” specifically to be in the Bill, but because the encouragement of suicide is already a crime. I am being logical and taking what is already a criminal offence under the Suicide Act. If we do not include it in the Bill, it means that someone can commit a criminal offence against a victim, and that does not preclude the victim from being eligible for assisted dying, so I am suggesting a very logical amendment. My right hon. Friend makes a great point, but if we have an issue with the word “encouragement”, we need to take that up with the drafters of the Suicide Act, which was long before my time in 1961.

• 12 Feb 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

  More

  I am sorry, but I am going to give way to the hon. Member for Bexleyheath and Crayford, if he still wishes to intervene, as I am aware that he has been waiting.

• 12 Feb 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

  More

  I support my hon. Friend’s comments. Outside of this place, I speak about this topic in a manner that is as sensitive as possible. When we are talking about the legislative changes that are needed to this Bill and how it interacts with other legislation, I will use the correct legal terminology, because I think it is really important that we do that.

• 12 Feb 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

  More

  The hon. Gentleman is making interesting points. This is probably more a question for the Minister. I have been focused on clause 24, in terms of encouragement, but clause 26 obviously makes coercion and pressure a criminal offence. The hon. Gentleman says he thinks coercion includes undue influence; does it include encouragement? I seek clarification of whether undue influence and encouragement are captured in clause 26. When I tabled the amendments, I assumed not. If it is the case, how does that interact with the Suicide Act, which already makes the encouragement of suicide a criminal offence, and is probably not—I have not checked, so I would have to look—consistent with this? That needs to be looked at. It is easy to say that undue influence is included in coercion, but it has a knock-on impact on a lot of other things. We need to be really clear on that point.

• 12 Feb 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

  More

  It is reassuring to hear that I am not the only one worried about this, so I thank the hon. Lady for that.

• 12 Feb 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

  More

  I am so glad that the hon. Member has spoken, because this is a really important conversation. I appreciate that we are getting a little ahead of ourselves, so I will be quick before the Chair tells me off. Section 2A of the Suicide Act includes pressure when it talks about encouragement. That is why it is so useful to have this conversation—because that could mean that encouragement is captured by clause 26. There is some work to be done. I stand by the amendments—it is really important that we have them on the face of the Bill—but, when we get to the relevant point in Committee, we need to think about the interactions of clauses 24 and 26 with the Suicide Act. I am sure that the Ministers will want to look at that, but we may need to be very clear what is included in what, which may require some things in the Bill so that there is no ambiguity. Does the hon. Gentleman agree?

• 12 Feb 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

  More

  I thank the hon. Lady for that intervention. I know that she is wholeheartedly seeking to make sure that the safeguards in the Bill are as good as they can be, so I very much appreciate her recognising the positive intent behind my amendments. It would be useful to understand whether those who are legally qualified believe that undue influence is already covered by “coercion”. I am not qualified to give a view on that, but if that were the case, that would provide some reassurance, and that could then maybe be included in guidance. However, I would want to see a legal opinion on that. In the absence of such a legal opinion, putting that on the face of the Bill is the safest—and the right—thing to do at this point in time. I suspect that we will be voting on this shortly, before we can get a legal opinion, and given that we are talking about safety here, I would rather go for belt and braces and include “undue influence” on the face of the Bill.

• 12 Feb 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

  More

  I completely agree. It is important to recognise that different people will have different views on levels of coercion. I have already quoted some of the witnesses; I found it quite jarring that certain witnesses who had facilitated assisted dying for hundreds—perhaps thousands—of people said that there were no cases of coercion. I find that difficult to believe, although I do not doubt for a second that they believe it.

• 12 Feb 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

  More

  That is exactly right. As I have mentioned, I am not bringing in the concept of encouragement; it is already in the law and currently an offence. I am putting forward this logical amendment in order for the Bill to deal with that. If we do not do that, we have not circled the wagons.

• 12 Feb 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

  More

  I thank the hon. Lady for that point, but I do not think we are talking about criminal law here. This debate is not relevant to clause 24—it is relevant to eligibility. We are simply saying, through this amendment, that if a clinician thinks someone has been unduly influenced, they would not be eligible. I think the hon. Lady is crossing over to the encouragement point, but these are separate points.

• 12 Feb 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

  More

  In the light of my hon. Friend’s points, I have an interesting fact that he might enjoy: “encourage” was added to the Suicide Act by the last Labour Government in 2009, and replaced “aids” and “abets”, so it is not that archaic.

• 12 Feb 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

  More

  I am talking in legal terms, because we must use the right language. Under the law, I think what the hon. Lady said is not correct. I stand to be corrected by someone who is a lawyer, but given that we are amending the Suicide Act, I think technically an assisted death is the assistance of a suicide. I understand that the hon. Lady would like to reframe that and use different words to describe it. Maybe that could be done, but right now, under the law, it would be suicide.

• 12 Feb 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

  More

  I thank my right hon. Friend for that very useful contribution. First, I am saying “suicide” because we are talking about the Suicide Act, and I cannot perform this role without naming the actual bit of legislation that we are talking about. I know people here are a little bit squeamish about the word “suicide”, but it has a clear legal meaning.

• 12 Feb 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

  More

  I completely agree. The hon. Member has made some powerful points over the course of this Committee. The reality of the matter is, like the hon. Lady said, this has not really been considered fully until recent times. I think we are now all much more aware of the coercion and pressure that goes on. It is only right, when we are making this decision now, to be fully aware of that and have our eyes wide open to the realities. At the end of the day, we are not legislating for when it works perfectly for that ideal candidate who absolutely wants to do this for all the right reasons and they are in pain, which is exactly what the Bill is designed for. We are legislating for that big group of people who are vulnerable, and who it may not work for. That is a much bigger group. We heard compelling evidence from Dr Jamilla Hussain, which really impacted me, about this big group of vulnerable people who could be detrimentally impacted. We must make legislation for the group that could be negatively impacted. They should be our focus.

• 12 Feb 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

  More

  Clause 24 decriminalises assistance to commit suicide, in order that assisted dying becomes lawful. It does not specifically decriminalise encouragement, which means that the Suicide Act 1961 still applies if someone were to encourage someone to commit suicide. It would therefore be a crime and have a sentence associated with it. However, the hon. Lady makes a really good point: it would be of great value at the relevant time to hear from the Minister on the legal point I am making. I hope everything I am saying is coherent and sound, but it would be useful to hear from the Minister.

• 12 Feb 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

  More

  That is an important point. Obviously, case law becomes quite important in this. Supporting someone’s decision is very different from encouraging someone who was not in the place of wanting to go through with assisted dying. Again, these things do sometimes end up in the courts, because sometimes it can be a grey line. It is important that we have this protection. Right now, it is an offence to encourage someone to commit suicide, and we need to recognise that. That is the law right now.

• 12 Feb 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

  More

  I thank the hon. Member for that intervention. I think the point on probate is right; it is commonly used there, but it is not just used in that situation. My understanding is that, when it comes to decisions by clinicians with regard to withdrawing life-sustaining treatment, undue influence is one of the considerations.

• 12 Feb 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

  More

  I completely agree with the hon. Lady. We should not make the mistake of assuming that certain amendments will be accepted. Until there is a Division, we do not know what the Bill is going to look like. It is incredibly difficult to table amendments early on when we do not know whether other fundamental things are going to change. That is why it is important that we are really thorough and improve the safeguards as much as we can, clause by clause. I do not want to get to the end of this process without our having accepted any of the improved safeguards, only for the Bill to be turned on its head at the end when there is a Division on something fundamental. As the hon. Lady rightly says, we do not get the opportunity to come back and review the decisions we have made on the back of that.

• 12 Feb 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

  More

  I do not think that we are trying to exempt something from the Suicide Act through the Bill; we are decriminalising something that is currently a criminal offence. Right now, it is a criminal offence to assist someone to commit suicide, and clause 24 decriminalises that. I totally support what you have done here, but your Bill does not decriminalise encouragement. I imagine that you have done that for very good reasons, which I support; we do not want people to be able to go round encouraging people to commit suicide. It is vital that there is protection for the vulnerable people we have talked about. You are absolutely right that what constitutes encouragement can be subjective and difficult to determine, but encouragement is already in the law, so we have to deal with it. It is already a criminal offence to encourage a suicide, so it does not make sense not to deal with it in this Bill.

• 12 Feb 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

  More

  One of the major concerns that we have heard from members of the public and MPs relates to the importance of ensuring that appropriate safeguards are in place, so that people make genuine choices and do not request an assisted death because somebody else has pushed them towards it. For that reason, it is vital that subsection (2)(b) is as comprehensive as it can be. It currently refers specifically to a person having been “coerced” or “pressured”, which covers only the more direct kinds of influence, not more subtle ones. It seems clear to me that amendments are required to ensure that more subtle kinds of influence are covered adequately, and that clinicians do not just look for obvious signs of coercion or pressure when considering eligibility. In her oral evidence on 29 January, Dr Mullock said: “In terms of the Bill that we are discussing, one possible weakness here is that it identifies, only very obviously, problematic conduct in terms of coercion or pressure exerted by another person, and actually the kind of undue influence that might occur might be very subtle. More needs to be done to recognise that and the subtle encouragement that might take place, where a relative might frame their support for the person seeking to die in terms of, ‘This will be better for you,’ and, ‘Have you considered this?’ That is not necessarily an example of clear abuse, so when the person seeking to die then consults the doctor, they are not going to characterise what has happened to them as coercion or abuse. More needs to be done to discuss with the person whether or not they have been encouraged by the people around them.” –– [ Official Report, Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Public Bill Committee, 29 January 2025; c. 162, Q204.] Amendment 23 would add the term “unduly influenced” to the clause. It is an important addition, as it is a recognised term in law. It is designed to ensure that relationships of dependence are considered. In some cases, there is no bad intent, but there is a power differential, subtle as it may be, and it is important that we recognise how strong it can be. A child not wanting to disappoint their parent; a wife not wanting to go against her husband’s wishes—there may well be no threats or explicit pressure, and there may be a lot of love shrouding it, but the influence is there and it is strong. That is why the concept is applied in probate cases to test whether someone has faced influence, domination or pressure that prevents them from exercising free and independent volition with regard to the act. It has also been applied in medical decisions, including over a refusal of treatment that can lead to death. For example, there was a case of a Jehovah’s Witness who refused a lifesaving blood transfusion under undue influence from her mother. It is therefore a natural addition to the Bill. In important judgments, the courts have said that undue influence will have more impact on people who are very tired, in pain or depressed, and that “a patient in a weakened condition may be unduly influenced in circumstances in which if he had been fit, he would have resisted the influence sought to be exercised over him.” This legal concept could have been designed for the context of assisted dying. That is why it is important that the amendment is made. In her oral evidence on 28 January, Dr Cox said, “I would say that you cannot always identify coercion. You can identify it when it is very obvious and extreme, but when it is very subtle, we cannot always identify it. After the event, there is nobody to tell us about coercion, so it is very difficult to monitor.” –– [ Official Report, Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Public Bill Committee, 28 January 2025; c. 73, Q90.] I would also like to point out that California’s law prohibits coercion or undue influence, so there is established precedent in using this phrase in the safeguards of assisted dying law. If we have the ambition for our law—if it is to pass—to be the safest in the world, we need to add the term “undue influence” as a minimum. Even with that additional safeguard, however, Dr Spielvogel rather worryingly said in his oral evidence, “I have seen assisted dying laws go into practice across numerous states and have helped many, many people through this process, and I have never seen a case where I even suspected coercion.” –– [ Official Report, Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Public Bill Committee, 28 January 2025; c. 101, Q139.] Richard Robinson of Hourglass, in his oral evidence, said, “I think that coercion is underplayed significantly in cases of abuse of older people…One of the biggest issues we face is the fact that we have no idea of the levels of training that healthcare professionals and the judiciary receive to understand and recognise coercion. That leaves us in a situation where medical professionals say that coercion in these circumstances is minimal, but people need to understand what coercion is and how to recognise the signs of it in the first place, especially bearing in mind that the vast majority of cases that we see take place in the home and by family, rather than by professionals.” –– [ Official Report, Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Public Bill Committee, 29 January 2025; c. 158, Q196.] Additionally, psychiatric and legal experts have said that undue influence is relevant in this context. In written evidence, Professor Allan House refers to undue influence as “coercion in its less overt or threatening forms”. He also draws attention to the great risk of undue influence in the case of couples seeking assisted suicide at the same time. The probate lawyer Tamasin Perkins, in an article on the Bill, says, “Undue influence or coercion is depressingly common in the arena of contested wills and gifts.” She suggests that the current law on undue influence could be usefully incorporated into the Bill. To those who worry that adding undue influence could make things more difficult for clinicians when assessing, I would say that it is absolutely right on something of this gravity that rigorous consideration is given to the possibility of undue influence. I turn to amendment 82, which adds the term “encouraged” to coercion and pressure. This amendment is in line with Dr Mullock’s advice in both her written and oral evidence. It is important to note that encouraging suicide is currently a crime under section 2 of the Suicide Act 1961. It is also important to note that the Bill does not decriminalise encouragement, only assistance. Clause 24 decriminalises only the assistance component, not the encouragement component. Thus, if the Bill were to pass, encouragement of assisted dying would still be a crime. That is absolutely right and something that I fully support. As encouragement of suicide is clearly recognised as a heinous crime, it surely must follow that when considering whether someone is eligible for such assistance to end their life, consideration is given to whether they have been a victim of such a crime. This feels like a rather basic safeguard that is missing from the Bill and must be rectified. As former Attorney General, Victoria Prentis, has written, “maintaining the prohibition on encouraging suicide is key to protecting vulnerable people”. She says it is a problem, though, that “doctors and judges under the bill are not required to check whether the person’s decision is their own or whether they have been encouraged by others.” She goes on to say that she hopes the Committee will support my amendment, and David Hughes—formerly of the Law Commission—says that keeping the offence of “encouragement” would help to prevent “insidious pressure”.

• 12 Feb 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

  More

  I absolutely agree that such clarity would be very useful. The hon. Member and I both want to ensure that undue influence is captured somewhere; I am less picky about where. As long as it gets covered somewhere in the Bill, that would be an improvement to the Bill, and I hope that everyone would really welcome that. I think everyone recognises the issue. I am not hearing that people are opposed to this; they recognise that there can be more subtle forms of coercion. If we can work together to find the best place for that to go in the Bill, I am very open to that.

• 12 Feb 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

  More

  My interpretation is that it would not.

• 12 Feb 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

  More

  My hon. Friend makes the point powerfully. I say to everyone in this Committee—we had this discussion yesterday—that I am not opposed in principle to the concept of assisted dying, but I see my role here as to protect the vulnerable. That is what I am trying to do, and I know everyone here wants to do exactly that. I cannot really see any downside to these amendments. Why would the Committee not want them included, if we want to protect the most vulnerable? Yes, it may put a bit more onus on clinicians, because they would need to look for a lower level of coercion. But that is absolutely right—of course they should have to do that. We are talking about assisted death. It is really important that we have a higher level of consideration.

• 12 Feb 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

  More

  I thank the right hon. Lady for that really helpful intervention. That is exactly the kind of advice that is extremely useful to us new MPs undertaking this process. I will have to make the decision on that question in a matter of minutes, and it is very difficult, but I will do my best to make the right decision. New clause 5 seeks to define encouragement for the purposes of the Bill and includes some exclusions. We have already talked about some of the challenges with exactly what encouragement means, and clearly there are certain acts that we do not want to be captured by it. The aim of the clause is just to ensure that it is only intentional, targeted and effective encouragement that is covered. I am very open to working with the Government to ensure that the drafting reflects the intent; it may well be that some other things go in there to address some of the concerns raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for North West Hampshire around support being given by families. No one wants to see that included in this definition—I think we all agree on that. In summary, I hope hon. Members will view these amendments, incorporating undue influence and encouragement into clause 1, favourably, in order to bolster the safeguards in this Bill. It is vital that subtler forms of influence are addressed, to protect patients and to ensure that it is not just the obvious signs of coercion that are looked for. I also welcome amendment 113, tabled by the hon. Member for Broxtowe, which is very much in the same spirit as amendments 23 and 82 and would insert the word “manipulated”. I hope we will debate it because, if accepted, it would certainly improve the safeguards in the Bill.