Rebecca Paul MP: speeches 2025

Speeches

• 25 Mar 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-eighth sitting) · Hansard source

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  It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms McVey. I rise to speak on clause stand part and new clause 36, and in support of amendment 525 and amendment (a) to new clause 36, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for East Wiltshire. This is a really important debate. The NHS is the greatest achievement of any Labour Government, and maybe even of any Government.

• 25 Mar 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-eighth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I thank the hon. Member for his intervention. I was quoting written evidence, so I just quoted it, of course, as written. We should be ashamed if what I have set out is where we end up as a result of this Bill. How would it in any way recognise patient autonomy and give them a real choice? Clearly, it would not. We will end up with patients taking an assisted death because there is no alternative to dying well. If as much effort was put into improving palliative care as has been put into legalising assisted dying, a much greater number of people would be given the dignified, comfortable deaths they rightly deserve. It is a travesty that we find ourselves considering the introduction of assisted dying while hospices are on their knees and patients face a postcode lottery when it comes to receiving adequate end-of-life care. Accordingly, I will vote against new clause 36.

• 25 Mar 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-eighth sitting) · Hansard source

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  It is important that there is a degree of separation, but I would say to the hon. Lady that it would have made more sense for her to put forward a proposal that we could evaluate, assess, and identify the upsides and downsides of. It would be much easier for me to then come up with suggestions. It does not make sense to ask me, “What is the solution and how would you do this?”, and for me to lay out the many different ways that this could be done, without having first laid a proposal in front of me.

• 25 Mar 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-ninth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I rise to speak briefly to amendments 172 and 173, in my name, but amendment 172 will fall if amendment 539 is voted through. The point of amendment 172 is to ensure that the commissioner has adequate data about important events. It turns a “may” into a “must”. It means that the Secretary of State must issue regulations requiring a doctor to notify the chief medical officer, or the commissioner as in all likelihood it will be, of any notifiable event.

• 25 Mar 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-ninth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I completely agree. That is exactly what the amendment is intended to do. We are trying to prevent advertising of an inappropriate service to inappropriate groups. It makes sense, therefore, to effectively ban advertising. I think most people would agree that it would be distasteful and inappropriate to have adverts for assisted dying everywhere people look. I hope that hon. Members will consider supporting the amendment, even if that is in an amended form.

• 25 Mar 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-ninth sitting) · Hansard source

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  It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Roger. I rise to speak about amendments 518 and 520. As we have said, it is important that we understand what coercion means in a legal sense, and I am really grateful to the hon. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge for trying to set that out, because it is not an easy task. Like her, I am concerned that defining it in this way may make it harder to prove coercion and may undermine the safeguards in the Bill. Under the amendments, the assessing doctors and the panel are meant to look not just for evidence of coercion but for evidence of intent to induce assisted suicide, and they will have to show that the applicant is requesting assisted suicide against their will. That could make the law powerless against many kinds of behaviour that we want to prohibit. To start with the point about intent, coercion and pressure take many forms, and they do not always involve a clear intent. Amendment (b) to amendment 518 and amendment (b) to amendment 520, in the name of the hon. Member for Lowestoft, very reasonably draw attention to family relationships. On Second Reading, the right hon. Member for Hackney North and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott) said: “people do not generally write letters to sick relatives urging them to consider assisted suicide and then put those letters on file. Coercion in the family context can be about not what you say but what you do not say—the long, meaningful pause.” —[ Official Report , 29 November 2024; Vol. 757, c. 1030.] But even in more blatant cases, we cannot necessarily prove intent directed towards assisted suicide. Sue Smith, a clinical psychologist, said in written evidence that coercive control often ramps up when the abused partner receives a cancer diagnosis: “The seriousness of the cancer diagnosis may be systematically and actively denied or minimised, claims can be made by the male partner that she is attention seeking, or she is accused of making up the effects of treatment, and can be left isolated and alone when in physical need…a woman learns to doubt her reality and experience, and is extremely isolated. This can lead to heightened anxiety, hopelessness and helplessness, and abject despair, which can lead to a person wishing they were dead.” That could be seen as coercion towards assisted suicide, but in that scenario does the abusive partner demonstrate clear intent? I am not sure the doctor or panel could demonstrate that in that instance, especially as they need to be satisfied only on the balance of probabilities that there is no coercion. If the panel think that there is a 45% chance that there is intent, but no more than that, they have to grant the application. The harrowing story of Ryan Wellings and Kiena Dawes shows that even when coercion can be proved, proving that an abuser intends someone else’s suicide is a completely different matter. After Kiena Dawes took her own life, Wellings was convicted of coercive control and assault. The judge told him: “from May 2020 until her death you abused, assaulted, exploited, controlled and demeaned her. When she died it is clear that she had begun to believe your lies to the effect that she was deranged, physically disgusting, friendless, worthless and an unfit mother. You had persuaded her that she had no one to turn to.” Before her death, Dawes wrote a note saying, “Ryan Wellings killed me.” Although he was convicted on other counts, Wellings was acquitted of manslaughter. That demonstrates that coercive control, even if it is followed by suicide, does not always mean that intent can be demonstrated. It is really tricky. Similarly, people may pressurise a relative without intending to override their will. The barrister Ruth Hughes KC, who has been quoted before, said: “It is surprisingly easy for a relative, whilst completing a variation on ‘the classic asset strip’, to persuade themselves that they are actually acting in their aunt Dorothy’s best interests or in accordance with her wishes”. In other words, someone can pressurise a relative into assisted suicide without intending to. Again, including intent here could actually muddy the waters. I have a similar concern about the phrase “against that other person’s will”. That sounds very straightforward, but in practice it can be much less clear. Part of the effect of coercion is that people lose confidence in their own will and adopt that of others. In written evidence, many frontline workers pointed out that coercion does not always clearly appear as someone acting against their will. Janet Reiss, a specialist doctor in palliative care in Wolverhampton, says patients will not “even necessarily be aware of being coerced”. Dr Jennifer Hardes Dvorak, a senior lecturer at Canterbury Christ Church University specialising in medical law, states that the Bill “does not consider how people internalise feelings of coercion and…act on this.” If someone has internalised a feeling that they would be better off dead, that may be their will, even if we hope we could change it. Anni Donaldson, a domestic abuse expert at the University of Strathclyde, said: “Decades of work examining the impact of coercive and controlling behaviour has shown that ‘coercive control’ is not merely persuasion, but a complete change in the perspective of the victim so that she truly believes that she is worthless, a burden to her partner or wider family, and would not be missed should she die…Women are regularly humiliated, demeaned, and told they would be ‘better off dead’, or, that they are a ‘useless mother’, or that the children would be better off without them. This abuse erodes women’s confidence, autonomy, and self-esteem. Cut off from support, women often come to believe these lies, fearing reprisals from their partner if they report the abuse, many choose to tell no one. This long term, relentless, dehumanising process can result in a woman believing that she is ‘disposable’.” Similarly, the writer and campaigner Sarah Ditum warns that the Bill may not protect “the patient who, through lengthy cruelty and coercion from a partner or carer, becomes genuinely convinced that she (or sometimes he) is a burden who would be better off dead. Such a person may even refuse treatment, causing a curable disease to become terminal and placing them within the purview of the bill.” So we might not believe that assisted suicide is in someone’s best interests, but there is no best interest test in the Bill or the amendments—just a reference to the person’s will. If a victim of coercive control truly believes they ought to die, it is not clear how the doctor or the panel can refuse their application, unless coercion can actually be proved, and proving it is not always easy, as we have just discussed. My hon. Friend the Member for East Wiltshire has tabled amendments to remove the phrase “against that other person’s will”. Obviously, that is all academic now, as we are not pressing the amendment to a vote, but I would support doing that, because that phrase does more to narrow the definition than anything else. On another point, amendments 518 and 520 refer to pressure and coercion from organisations. I do not know exactly what the hon. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge has in mind with that. I guess an example might be the cases we have heard about in other jurisdictions where a health insurer or provider tells someone that they cannot fund a treatment but can fund assisted dying options. It could be that the hon. Lady had other things in mind there. That would possibly count as pressure under some circumstances, but it would be very hard to show that there was intent on the part of the organisation. It is not clear that the amendments help us to identify and avoid coercion and pressure in that sense. Before I finish, I would like to point out something else that might be missing from the amendments: it is my favourite topic, the question of undue influence—my apologies to the Justice Minister, because I know we have gone over it a few times.

• 25 Mar 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-ninth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I thank my right hon. Friend for that point. He is absolutely right that we can learn from what other jurisdictions have done, leverage that and create an amendment or new clause that works for what we are trying to achieve, and know that it will target the advertising that we seek to target.

• 25 Mar 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-ninth sitting) · Hansard source

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  It would be reassuring if that were the case because such data can be very useful. By making sure we get into the routine of providing it, it is there if we ever need it. Amendment 173 provides that any regulations under the clause must be made under the affirmative rather than the negative statutory instrument procedure. In the interests of using our time well, I will not repeat the arguments that were made last week on this. However, if amendment 539 is accepted, the Bill will again defer a lot to ministerial powers and non-binding guidance and codes of practice. Under the negative procedure, Parliament is reduced to watching rather than properly participating in the decision-making process.

• 25 Mar 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-ninth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I think we would be talking about an advert via electronic form, marketing a particular service. We would have to go back to the meaning of “advert” to answer that. Obviously, there are broader ways of advertising on social media and so on, which I also seek to prevent with the amendment. That is why banning the advertising of such services is so important, so that a pro-suicide message is not inadvertently delivered to millions of people who assisted dying is not appropriate for. We have to recognise that there are vulnerable people out there who could be influenced by it. It is my view that conversations about assisted dying should happen in person, between the relevant doctor and the patient; they should not be prompted by a TV ad or something seen on a bus. Ads should not be coming up on someone’s Facebook feed every time they log on. I hope Committee members will support this common-sense amendment. I think that for it to be properly effective, it needs to be expanded to also cover clinics or other organisations advertising assisted dying services more broadly. I very much welcome the opportunity to work with Ministers and the Bill’s sponsor to get this right, if the Committee is disposed to supporting such an amendment.

• 25 Mar 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-ninth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I thank the hon. Lady for that clarification of the information she has been given. We have gone over the question of undue influence a few times. I promise I will not talk about it for much longer, but it is relevant, which is why I keep raising it. In a judgment that my hon. Friend the Member for Solihull West and Shirley has previously mentioned, Lord Nicholls said that undue influence includes two things. The first is “overt acts of improper pressure or coercion”. The second is a kind of influence that “arises out of a relationship between two persons where one has acquired over another a measure of influence, or ascendancy, of which the ascendant person then takes unfair advantage...The influence one person has over another provides scope for misuse without any specific overt acts of persuasion. The relationship between two individuals may be such that, without more, one of them is disposed to agree a course of action proposed by the other.” That definition suggests something broader than what is described in amendments 518 and 520, but I take the point that the hon. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge has just clarified. The amendments suggest that somebody will actively interfere with someone else’s “decision-making autonomy” and have an intention to induce them to do something. But Lord Nicolls’s definition of undue influence is much less dramatic; it just identifies a relationship where one person’s view holds a lot of sway. For the last time—I promise—I would be grateful for the Minister’s view on that. I am sure she will talk through that point and advise on the clarification the hon. Lady has just given. In conclusion, the amendments are completely well intended. It is helpful that the hon. Lady tabled them and that we have had this debate, and I am grateful to her for that. However, I am inclined to think that they would narrow the definition too much. My preference would be to remain with what we have, subject to the points I have raised many times on undue influence.

• 25 Mar 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-ninth sitting) · Hansard source

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  Will the hon. Lady give way?

• 25 Mar 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-ninth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I am sorry to backtrack slightly, but I want to clarify that the Isle of Man is a Crown dependency and not part of the UK.

• 25 Mar 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-ninth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time. The new clause would make the advertising of services by a co-ordinating and/or independent doctor by a person in the course of a business an offence with a sentence of up to two years in prison or a fine or both. As we have discussed previously, we will likely see private provision of assisted dying services, if the Bill is approved. That will create a potentially lucrative opportunity for private businesses, particularly if provision on the NHS is not consistent across the country or is overwhelmed. “Advertising” means the techniques used to bring attention to a product or service with the aim of presenting it as something a potential customer might need or want. The overarching aim of advertising by a business is to ultimately sell more of a product or service. We must keep that overarching reason in mind when considering the amendment. It would be incredibly inappropriate for such services to be advertised on billboards, public transport or daytime telly, targeting those who may be approaching the end of their life, with ads run repeatedly along with those for stairlifts and life insurance. Such advertising could also undermine our national suicide prevention strategy by normalising suicide in certain situations. It becomes much harder to say to people that suicide is not the answer if we are content to say that it is in certain situations. I can only imagine some of the difficult conversations that could be generated from an advert seen by a young girl or boy already battling with suicidal thoughts. How does a parent or guardian explain why suicide is not right for them? Imagine the potential impact on men, too. As we all know, suicide is a leading cause of death in men in this country. In 2022, for males between the ages of 20 and 34, one in four deaths was categorised as “intentional self-harm” or “event of undetermined intent”. That is a shocking statistic. That is why banning the advertising of such services is so important.

• 25 Mar 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-ninth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I rise to support new clause 34, which clarifies that assisted dying is not a medical treatment—not only because of the principle behind it, which I have talked a lot about already, but because of the unintended results. We need to recognise that many laws, rules and regulations have been written using the word “treatment” that never envisaged assisted dying being included. Every bit of law that refers to when treatment can be given, with or even without consent, such as section 63 of the Mental Health Act 1983, will become a potential problem if assisted dying is technically viewed as a medical treatment. New clause 34 is therefore essential to protect the meaning and integrity of the current law and to protect patients in future. In written evidence, Professor David Jones points out that there are dangerous consequences to classifying death as a medical treatment. As a general principle, he observes: “If an effective medical treatment cannot be self-administered orally then other routes should be considered, including those administered by a healthcare professional.” We can immediately see the problem that will arise if assisted dying is a treatment. The view that such a treatment can be administered by a healthcare professional suddenly moves us into euthanasia territory, which is clearly not the intention of the Bill. Professor Jones goes on to say: “If a treatment effectively reduces distressing symptoms in one category of patient (adults at the end of life), then it should be considered for treating other categories of patient”. If we substitute the word “treatment” with “assisted dying”, we get a wholly unacceptable approach that could open the way to offering assisted dying to under-18s, as in Belgium, or to people whose psychological suffering is unbearable, as we have seen in Belgium and the Netherlands with the euthanasia of people with mental health conditions. Finally, Professor Jones says: “Where a patient does not have capacity to consent to medical treatment then doctors should provide whatever treatment is ‘of overall benefit’ to the patient.” If we substitute the same words, we can see that once again it leaves us with a big issue. The Bill already has requirements relating to capacity, age and physical illness, and a requirement for self-administration, but the point is that by classifying assisted dying as a medical treatment we are making those requirements less stable and introducing the potential for conflict within the existing law. We are inviting future Parliaments to question why they are there in the first place. Why arbitrarily restrict this medical treatment when we do not restrict other treatments in the same way? If we do not rule out assisted dying as a medical treatment, we are potentially opening the Bill up for challenge by the courts when assisted dying treatment is limited to certain groups. That is one reason why the Association for Palliative Medicine has explicitly backed the principle represented in the new clause. It has said in written evidence that defining death as treatment would be “contrary to all prior medical practice and public expectation, and laden with risks of unintended consequences.” The Bill may look set in stone, but the law can easily be amended in future, for instance by amending a major health Bill. What we decide in this Committee could have major consequences in a few years’ time. I urge that we future-proof the Bill now by explicitly declaring in it that assisted dying is not a medical treatment, so that the issues I have set out will not arise at any point.

• 25 Mar 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-ninth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I would not choose to have this specific definition in the Bill. There may well be another definition that I would be more comfortable with, so I cannot rule that out. However, I completely agree with the hon. Lady that this has been a helpful debate, and I really appreciate her tabling the amendments so that we could have it.

• 25 Mar 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-ninth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I thank everyone for all the very constructive points they made. I completely agree with the points raised; I think some work is needed, but I am pleased that the hon. Member for Spen Valley and other Committee members are willing to work with me and the tabling Member—my hon. Friend the Member for West Worcestershire—to get this measure into a place where it does what we want it to do, without capturing things that we do not want it to capture. I completely take the point on the concern about emails; that is not what we want to capture.

• 25 Mar 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-ninth sitting) · Hansard source

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  Given the spirit of it, I feel like we should. That does not prevent me from tabling it on Report—so yes, I will press it to a vote. Question put, That the clause be read a Second time.

• 19 Mar 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-seventh sitting) · Hansard source

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  My apologies, Mr Dowd, but it is a technical point. I think the Minister understands what I am asking.

• 19 Mar 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-seventh sitting) · Hansard source

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  I appreciate that, Mr Dowd, which is why I was elaborating—I wanted to make sure that everyone understood the nature of the question without having seen the letter. In order to summarise, following your instruction, I refer to the letter.

• 19 Mar 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-seventh sitting) · Hansard source

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  I rise to speak briefly on clause stand part. As I noted a few weeks back—it feels a long time ago—when we debated amendment 82, the clause leaves the law in a strange position. I hope that we will now have the opportunity to explore that and make sure that we are comfortable with the position and have identified whether any changes are needed. Section 2(1) of the Suicide Act 1961 criminalises both assisting and encouraging suicide: “A person (‘D’) commits an offence if— (a) D does an act capable of encouraging or assisting the suicide or attempted suicide of another person, and (b) D’s act was intended to encourage or assist suicide or an attempt at suicide.” It is a single offence, but can be committed in two ways: either through assistance or through encouragement. Clause 24(3), both as drafted and as amended by amendment 505, would make an exception from criminal liability under the Suicide Act, but in respect only of assistance, not of encouragement. It would cover: “(a) providing assistance to a person to end their own life in accordance with the Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Act 2025, or performing any other function under that Act in accordance with that Act, or (b) assisting a person seeking to end their own life in accordance with that Act, in connection with the doing of anything under that Act.” In other words, it is strictly limited to assisting suicide. It only covers the actions in the Bill around conducting the preliminary discussion, assessing the applicant, giving the applicant the approved substance and so on. What happens to the other half of section 2 of the Suicide Act: the offence of encouraging suicide? I will not rehash the debates that we had over amendment 82, but I must point out that as that amendment was rejected, the law does not dovetail. Encouragement would still be very much an offence under the Suicide Act, as it has not been excepted under the Bill. Because my amendment was not agreed to, we will have the absurd situation in which somebody can commit the crime of actively encouraging someone to take their own life, yet that will not be looked for or taken into account when assessing someone’s eligibility for an assisted death. On the flipside, there is a very real risk for families and friends of loved ones who could inadvertently overstep the mark and move from support of a loved one to encouragement. It does not take much imagination to realise that that could lead to accusations and potentially even to prosecution if the law is not sorted and clarified at this stage. We already know how difficult it has been for family members who want to accompany loved ones to Dignitas but fear that they could face prosecution; the hon. Member for Spen Valley has made that point so eloquently. No one wants that, so it is important that we ensure that the Bill does not create a similar situation in which someone could be unfairly prosecuted for encouragement, which is still very much a crime under the Suicide Act.

• 19 Mar 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-seventh sitting) · Hansard source

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  I am absolutely reassured by the hon. Lady’s amendment, and I welcome it, but it is worth drawing attention to the fact that the sentence is important but identifying coercion and pressure can be difficult too. In written evidence, a social worker called Rose has cast doubt on the workability of the Bill. She was writing when the High Court safeguard was still part of the Bill, so we need to bear that in mind, but what she said applies to the panel too. She wrote that “based on lived experience…there is no authentic provision mechanism or route that cheaply and swiftly would allow an approved palliative care professional…or social worker to act to protect a vulnerable person under the grounds of coercion….Place yourself in a position of being sick or older, coerced by family for financial gain or by a practitioner wanting to save public costs to pursue assisted suicide, the social worker senses it by body language, a squeezing of their wrist, a sharp silencing look. Can you see a judge saying: ‘the social worker sensed a tension in the air and a look’. Do you think that would serve to reach the threshold to override a request for assisted suicide in a court of law? In practice, what would happen would be, the social worker will record her concerns on the system, share them with her manager who will go to her manager who will say we do not have funds to consult legal and your evidence provided does not reach threshold anyway.”

• 19 Mar 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-seventh sitting) · Hansard source

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  Thank you, Mr Dowd. In that case, I will stop there. I was just making the point that this is important. Amendment 509 states: “Proceedings for an offence under this section may be instituted only by or with the consent of the Director of Public Prosecutions.” I would find it useful to have more clarity around how the offence is used currently, why it is used and why it is appropriate to use it in this instance. Those are all genuine questions. I simply do not know, so I would be grateful for some input. I will leave it there.

• 19 Mar 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-seventh sitting) · Hansard source

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  I will be fairly brief. I welcome amendment 508, which would ensure that conviction for the offence leads to a necessarily serious result. However, it is not just the strength of the sentence that we need to think about; there is also a question about how difficult it can be to detect and demonstrate coercion in the first place. Domestic abuse prosecutions have followed an overall downward trend over the past decade, according to Women’s Aid. A report from the Domestic Abuse Commissioner in January found the criminal justice system unfit to hold abusers to account and safeguard domestic abuse victims. Domestic abuse victims are being failed by the criminal justice system at every stage, from police to probation. Victims seeking safety in justice routinely face a lack of specialist service referrals, poor enforcement of protective orders, court delays and early release of abusers. The commissioner also found that just 5% of police-recorded domestic abuse offences reached conviction and that less than a fifth of victims have the confidence to report to the police in the first place. Within the police workforce itself, only 4% of alleged domestic abuse perpetrators are dismissed. Women’s Aid says that trust in the criminal justice system is at an all-time low, with domestic abuse survivors not feeling that they will be believed and supported when reporting abuse. That is even more challenging for black and minoritised survivors, who face additional barriers and poor responses when they seek help.

• 19 Mar 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-seventh sitting) · Hansard source

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  I thank the Minister for those helpful clarifications. Was any consideration given to also exempting encouragement as an offence under the Suicide Act? I am interested in why it was not exempted in the same way as assistance, particularly given that if it did fall within coercion and pressure—based on what the Minister said—it would get picked up as a criminal offence anyway under the Bill. I appreciate that the Minister will write to me on some of this, but the issue comes back to what is encouragement. As the hon. Member for Spen Valley set out—

• 19 Mar 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-sixth sitting) · Hansard source

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  The conversation has moved on a little, but I was just going to make the point that the amendments that I tabled focus very much on the rights of the employer with respect to what they expect from their staff. I wonder whether it would be helpful to explore that a bit more.