Peter Dowd MP: speeches 2024

Speeches

• 18 Dec 2024 · Provisional Local Government Finance Settlement · Hansard source

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  I would prefer to see the wise men and women on Labour’s Front Bench than Ebenezer Scrooge and Jacob Marley on the Conservative Front Bench. Does the Minister agree that the statement he has made today is in stark contrast to the legacy left by the Conservative party, which left local government in dire straits?

• 11 Dec 2024 · Explosive Ordnance Disposal Community · Hansard source

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  Thank you.

• 11 Dec 2024 · Dental Healthcare: East Anglia · Hansard source

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  I will call Jerome Mayhew to move the motion and the Minister to respond. As is the convention for 30-minute debates, there will not be an opportunity for the Member in charge to wind up.

• 10 Dec 2024 · Rare Autoimmune Rheumatic Diseases · Hansard source

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  It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair, Dr Huq. I thank the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) for bringing this issue before us today, because it is one of those subjects that does not get the attention that it needs. It is really important to tease out some of the issues, because there is a danger that they could be forgotten if we do not. The hon. Gentleman pushes this matter time and again. The whole question of rare autoimmune rheumatic disease needs to be set in the context of the wider issue of rare diseases, which are conditions that affect less than one in 2,000 people. There are 7,000 rare diseases, affecting one in 17 people, which is 3.5 million people. They can be of a genetic or non-genetic origin and they affect adults and children. Some 75% of rare diseases affect children and more than 30% of children with a rare disease die before their fifth birthday. That is a sobering statistic. We have to put the issue into that context: it affects the lives of so many people, not just those who are directly affected by the particular disease, but their family members and friends. A disease can also have an impact on someone’s work-life balance and their job, as well as more broadly. There are challenges, but I thank the Rare Autoimmune Rheumatic Disease Alliance for bringing those groups together to push for this issue. It believes, as we all do, that getting together gives us more strength. I support that, and I have no doubt that the Minister supports that too. We do not want rare diseases, particularly this type of disease, to be left at the back of the queue. The Government acknowledge that, so I am not pointing the finger at them, or at health professionals. Many people with this type of disease say that they do not get the support they need, but they do not blame individual clinicians, practitioners or healthcare workers; they blame the system in so far as it does not bring those professionals together in, for example, the clinical networks that the hon. Member for Strangford referred to. This is not a finger-pointing exercise, but it is important that where we can identify, and have identified, problems in the system, it is our responsibility to try to fix those problems. The hon. Gentleman also touched on the need for defined, measurable and identified standards to reduce inequalities in healthcare provision. RAIRDA is working with others to set out key statements that it believes will form the quality standards for the future. It has set out the challenges, such as the challenge of focusing on this issue and the points that the hon. Gentleman raised that the time from symptoms to diagnosis can be from two and a half years to as much as five years, and potentially beyond. There is also a challenge with access to specialist knowledge and expertise, and the hon. Gentleman’s valid point, which I repeat, about the need for those specialist networks. There is the challenge of getting support out to the people—the professionals—dealing with our constituents in one way fashion or another. I know the UK rare diseases framework, and the England rare diseases action plan in my case, has been trying to help patients to get a diagnosis faster but we need to do more. There has been a push to raise awareness among professionals, but we need to do more there. We need better co-ordination of care and improved access to specialist care, treatment and drugs. We also need to focus on the needs of the various nations. Although they all face similar problems, it is important to have a focus at a national and potentially regional level. I support the hon. Gentleman, who made important points. We will no doubt come back to this issue. I know that the Minister will respond, as he always does, constructively and positively, so I look forward to hearing what he and Members from other parties have to say. I will finish by saying to the hon. Gentleman that at no point during my contribution did I mention either Shakespeare or Sophocles.

• 6 Dec 2024 · European Union (Withdrawal Arrangements) Bill · Hansard source

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  May I say that it is a delight to see you in the Chair, Madam Deputy Speaker? I thank the hon. and learned Member for North Antrim (Jim Allister) for giving the House the opportunity to debate the contents of his Bill, as set out in its 25 clauses, and the issues that surround it, which have clearly been the subject of consternation, to say the least, in some quarters. I listened carefully to the many points and assertions that the hon. and learned Gentleman made; no doubt everybody in the Chamber listened to them. I do not underestimate the significance of the concerns—perceived, real or otherwise—that he and many others have in relation to the operation of the Windsor framework, which in effect was a successfully negotiated recalibration of the Northern Ireland protocol. There is no doubt that all sides worked hard to achieve an agreement, given the obvious complexities, nuances and tensions that were bound to arise when the implementation of the decision to leave the European Union was made in the light of the 2016 referendum. The detailed statement made by the most recent former Prime Minister, the response to it and the questions about it on 27 February 2023 set the tone, in my view—I think that is also the view of many other hon. Members—for a genuine attempt on all sides of the negotiation to be as flexible as possible, given the circumstances. I want to quote a few points from that debate. The Prime Minister at the time said: “Today’s agreement has three equally important objectives: first, allowing trade to flow freely within our UK internal market; secondly, protecting Northern Ireland’s place in our Union”— we all agree with and recognise that— “and thirdly, safeguarding sovereignty and closing the democratic deficit.” —[ Official Report , 27 February 2023; Vol. 728, c. 570.] He went on to take each of those in turn in more detail. He later said: “Today’s agreement scraps 1,700 pages of EU law.” —[ Official Report , 27 February 2023; Vol. 728, c. 571.] That has been referred to in the debate; I will return to that in due course. He went on to say: “The EU has also explicitly accepted an important principle in the political declaration. It is there in black and white that the treaty is subject to the Vienna convention. This means that, unequivocally, the legal basis for the Windsor framework is in international law.” —[ Official Report , 27 February 2023; Vol. 728, c. 574.] It is important to move on to the current Prime Minister, who was then the Leader of the Opposition. He said: “This agreement will allow us to move forward as a country, rather than being locked in endless disputes with our allies.” —[ Official Report , 27 February 2023; Vol. 728, c. 577.] Who would not agree with that statement? We do not want to continue to be locked in endless battles and arguments with our allies. It is worthwhile referring to the hon. Member for North Dorset (Simon Hoare), who said at the time: “My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and his ministerial colleagues have strained every sinew these last weeks and months to arrive at today’s position. They are to be congratulated.” —[ Official Report , 27 February 2023; Vol. 728, c. 582.] That is important from the Conservative Benches. The current Secretary of State for Northern Ireland said: “I congratulate the negotiators on this very significant achievement”, and it was an achievement. Even the right hon. Member for Goole and Pocklington (David Davis) said: “I start by unreservedly congratulating my right hon. Friend on what seems to be a spectacular negotiating success.” —[ Official Report , 27 February 2023; Vol. 728, c. 584.]

• 6 Dec 2024 · European Union (Withdrawal Arrangements) Bill · Hansard source

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  That is a really good point, and I am pleased we are having this debate, because these are the points we need to consider carefully when we look at these issues and figure them out. It is an excellent point; I think we will all reflect on that, and I hope the hon. and learned Member for North Antrim and hon. Gentleman across the Chamber reflect on it. It is important to note that the protection of the Belfast agreement was paramount and that was there to reassure the communities of Northern Ireland. I hope that this debate continues, notwithstanding some of the points that the hon. and learned Member for North Antrim made, so that people understand that we are here to reassure as much as we can.

• 6 Dec 2024 · European Union (Withdrawal Arrangements) Bill · Hansard source

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  My stance is that if a person does not trust me in a democratic environment, they are perfectly entitled to go down to the ballot box and put an X against my opponent’s name, and I will respect them for doing so. That is the way we do it in this country.

• 6 Dec 2024 · European Union (Withdrawal Arrangements) Bill · Hansard source

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  I will, but I first want to make a point about the hon. and learned Member for North Antrim. I know that he holds views that are born out of real belief in, and commitment to, his constituents and the wider communities across the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and that is exactly the view that I take. I hold views born out of a real belief in, and commitment to, my constituents, and every Member in this Chamber takes that approach. Who am I to challenge their integrity on that? I am not in any way going to attempt that, either from my side or to cast aspersions on the other side.

• 6 Dec 2024 · European Union (Withdrawal Arrangements) Bill · Hansard source

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  I do not think it is a humiliating concession, but if it is a concession at all, I think it is an attempt, given the circumstances that we faced, to reach an agreement with trading partners in the light of the decision of the British people. We live in a world where we do not get everything we want. We live in a world where there is a little bit of give and a little bit of take, and sometimes we are able to give more than we take, and vice versa. As I have said, however, I do not want to go down that rabbit hole, because I do not think it is necessarily the subject of today’s debate. We touch on it, and it is pertinent, but I do not think it should dominate the whole debate. There is no doubt that the subject is fraught with all the concerns and anxieties and consternation to which I referred earlier, and we have to operate in the wider political environment and milieu in which countries have to operate all the time. I think it only fair to point out that the law of unintended consequences may decide to poke its head around the door, and perhaps even to walk into the Chamber, and there will be nothing that we can do. That is the very nature of the issue that confronts us. There are no easy solutions. There are no easy answers to difficult questions. There are no off-the-cuff responses that will sort out the issue. That is a statement of the obvious.

• 6 Dec 2024 · European Union (Withdrawal Arrangements) Bill · Hansard source

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  As I understand it, that issue is being negotiated. I understand what the hon. Gentleman says, but I do not accept the point he made about subjugation. I do not think it is subjugation, and I will come to that. I understand what the hon. Gentleman is saying. I respect the point he made, and I respect the views of his constituents, just as I respect the views of my constituents. But it does not alter the fact that the negotiation is taking place. As I said before—I will repeat it again—these things are never, ever symmetrical.

• 6 Dec 2024 · European Union (Withdrawal Arrangements) Bill · Hansard source

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  The question we have to ask ourselves is whether the Bill before us is a breach of a treaty or agreement. I will leave that question in the air while I let the hon. Gentleman intervene.

• 6 Dec 2024 · European Union (Withdrawal Arrangements) Bill · Hansard source

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  My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. We have to be very careful of the law of unintended consequences when we go down a particular path. Issues are bound to arise that either no one thought about or thought would have significance outside of an abstract environment but subsequently became significant, or that were parked so that we could come back to them at a later date. The reality, as we found throughout the whole post-referendum period—oven-ready this and oven-ready that—is that lots of things that were parked are coming back to bite. The problem with that, as I said, is the law of unseen and ignored consequences—those things are waiting around the corner, and turn up like an uninvited and unwelcome guest in our house. Please bear with me, Madam Deputy Speaker, on the potential unintended consequences of coming out of a treaty. Imagine what would happen if we decided to abrogate the North Atlantic treaty—which, of course, no one would dream of doing. We know there would certainly be huge consequences to such an action. I suspect Members understand there would be pretty immediate and most probably predictable consequences to that. However, it is sometimes the unpredictability of taking actions that comes back to haunt us. The same could be said for other treaties, which may appear to be of little significance and consequence in the short term, but which might take on a whole new persona down the line. I am not sure that many people would initially grasp the consequences of, say, breaching the Antarctic treaty, but there would be consequences in due course. If we abrogate a treaty, or part of a treaty, it is unlikely that we can then somehow revisit it, change domestic law and expect other countries to accept that. I will finish on this point, because it is important. There are other treaties that we have to look to—I could go into detail on them, but I will not. What about— [ Interruption. ] Well, if Members insist. How about the 1963 nuclear test ban treaty? What would happen if we decided to tweak that a little bit through domestic law?

• 6 Dec 2024 · European Union (Withdrawal Arrangements) Bill · Hansard source

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  That is a perfectly valid point. Clearly, the hon. Gentleman has had a sneak preview of the points that I will raise later on. I will take up that matter with my staff. It is important to recognise that those views are considered. I am sure that those views have been informed by many events, circumstances and long-held political opinions, and by culturally held views, which, in turn, have been informed by many personal and political experiences—some constructive and positive, and others negative and traumatic. In justice to the debate, I am sure that Members have attempted to bring if not a fresh perspective to it, then at least a perspective that takes into account the views of others from across the Chamber. In this debate, the word “irrelevant” may itself become irrelevant, because we must face up to the fact that many of the points being made are not irrelevant, given the wide-ranging impact that any change to the law would have on internal and external relationships, both in a formal legal sense and informally, as my hon. Friend the Member for Chelsea and Fulham (Ben Coleman) said. On trust, the Bill asks the House to abrogate our treaty obligations under the withdrawal agreement. That is worrying. Having given this some thought, I decided to look at the treaty landscape and the issue of necessity, which has been raised. That then sets off the justified claim about the potential for abrogation, so it is a good place to start. The ecosystem around treaties goes to the heart of the efficacy of partnerships, relationships and—dare I use the word—trust between those who sign a treaty. This issue really goes to the heart of the question of trust, belief or faith in what we say as a nation. I look to our finest playwright to set the scene—in fact, I go to scene four from Shakespeare’s Henry VI, part 3: “For trust not him that hath once broken faith”. The concept of oaths and promises was explored by William Kerrigan in his book, “Shakespeare’s Promises”. It is important to quote this, because it goes to the heart of the matter. He writes: “It is impossible to imagine any kind of moral life without obligations, and impossible to imagine obligations without types of promises. We are always up against them. Before we ever reflect on what a promise is, we have made them and are expected to make more of them. We are born into nations that enter into treaties and agreements. Promises are with us like gravity. Man is a promising animal.”

• 6 Dec 2024 · European Union (Withdrawal Arrangements) Bill · Hansard source

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  My hon. Friend is right. Many of us here today want to discuss this issue because it is crucial to our constituents not just in the short term, but in the longer term. The former Member for Clwyd West said: “The Command Paper tells us that the framework, ‘narrows the range of EU rules applicable in Northern Ireland—to less than 3% overall by the EU’s own calculations’”. —[ Official Report , 27 February 2023; Vol. 728, c. 605.]

• 6 Dec 2024 · European Union (Withdrawal Arrangements) Bill · Hansard source

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  I understand the right hon. Gentleman’s position, but again, I disagree with his assertion.

• 6 Dec 2024 · European Union (Withdrawal Arrangements) Bill · Hansard source

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  It is a fair point. The question we have to ask ourselves is this: if we agree to the Bill, are we in breach of faith and trust? I think so. I do not say that lightly, or to be offensive or provocative.

• 6 Dec 2024 · European Union (Withdrawal Arrangements) Bill · Hansard source

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  I understand the right hon. Gentleman’s comments, and I am not going to challenge the integrity of the people who were part of that negotiation. It is not for me to challenge their integrity: they are hon. Members, and I believe that they did what they did with the best intention. During the statement on 27 February, I believe that, on the whole, most comments were supportive, but I acknowledge and accept that some were not, such as those from the right hon. Gentleman himself. He made his views known, as did others. I acknowledge that some of the Members who spoke during that statement are in the Chamber today and express disquiet. I welcome the fact that they have taken their places on the Benches, but their disquiet and the disquiet of others must be set in the context of the following—namely, that the agreement, according to the Command Paper, which is important and which I referred to earlier, “narrows the range of EU rules applicable in Northern Ireland – to less than 3% overall by the EU’s own calculations.” In any negotiation in the circumstances, coming away with that figure is not necessarily unreasonable. Would a figure of 100% be the acid test? Maybe it would, but I do not think so, given the circumstances—in practical terms, that is unlikely. That is the nature of negotiation: otherwise, it would be called imposition. We must recognise that those on the other side, who have their views, passions and commitment to their communities as well as their histories, have also been fraught with other people. I will finish with this. I do not accept the idea that some of our partners in the European Union—some of those eastern bloc European countries that were under the yoke of the Soviet Union as a coloniser—would take the different view that they, in turn, were part of a group or cabal trying to impose a colonialist approach to another country.

• 6 Dec 2024 · European Union (Withdrawal Arrangements) Bill · Hansard source

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  This House often debates the most challenging and sensitive matters. In this Chamber last Friday, we saw how a sensitive and intense debate based on conviction rather than dogma brings out the best in the House. That is why I have been looking forward to this debate and to listening to the views of colleagues of all political persuasions, and I hope I have done that. The hon. and learned Member for North Antrim gave the House a heads-up on this Bill with his previous actions. For example, the putative incompatibility of article 6 of the Acts of Union with the Belfast agreement was ruled out on all counts by the Supreme Court, as far as I am aware. I am sure Members on both sides of the Chamber will recognise that engagement with this debate is done in good faith, even where there are differences of opinion. I thank the hon. and learned Gentleman for his explanatory notes on the Bill. I read them with interest, particularly paragraph 11: “The purpose of the Bill is to provide Ministers with the power to make changes to the operation of the Windsor Framework in domestic law, restore the cross-community imperative of the Belfast (Good Friday) Agreement in respect of continuance of the Windsor Framework and to safeguard democracy, peace and stability in Northern Ireland.” In my view, this is effectively a reincarnation of the Northern Ireland Protocol Bill 2022, which caused concern in so many quarters, domains and jurisdictions. The Government of the time acknowledged that there would be non-performance of their international obligations out of necessity. They said that they sought to reach a negotiated settlement with the European Union to forestall the need to invoke the concept of necessity. The previous Government subsequently withdrew the Bill, because they believed they had secured the necessary conditions they sought, as set out in the UK-EU withdrawal agreement. Therefore, the assertion on the use of the concept of necessity was never put to the test. I, for one, am pleased that it was not. If it had been, in my view and in the view of many others, we would have been on the road to perdition—there is no doubt about that. As I have said, this Bill is another iteration of the Northern Ireland Protocol Bill that would take us back to June 2022 and, once again, put the country in danger of breaching its obligations under international law, notwithstanding what the hon. and learned Member for North Antrim said. The idea that the Bill can invoke the concept of necessity as a reason for a breach is beguiling, but illusory.

• 6 Dec 2024 · European Union (Withdrawal Arrangements) Bill · Hansard source

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  The bottom line, in my view and that of many other people, is that it has not been breached. I completely accept that the hon. and learned Gentleman takes a different view, but I do not believe that it has been breached, and there are better legal brains than me who agree. The Windsor framework was in turn realigned through the “Safeguarding the Union” paper of January 2024, which the hon. and learned Gentleman referred to, and the Stormont brake mechanism and the provisions contained therein for the Northern Ireland Assembly to approach the UK Government in relation to the application of EU laws. I read the Windsor framework time and time and time again, as I suspect all Members in this Chamber did.

• 6 Dec 2024 · European Union (Withdrawal Arrangements) Bill · Hansard source

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  Just a moment. If the right hon. Gentleman wishes to call a Westminster Hall debate in relation to a whole series of breaches of treaties— [ Interruption. ] I know that the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) will be in his place for a Westminster Hall debate whoever secures it. If anyone wants to secure a Westminster Hall debate to tease out those matters in a little bit more detail and in an atmosphere that is a little less fraught, I would be more than happy to be there either as the Chair or as a participating Member.

• 6 Dec 2024 · European Union (Withdrawal Arrangements) Bill · Hansard source

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  I do not quite understand the hon. and learned Member’s point. Today, we are trying to tease out many of the issues and concerns that he, quite understandably, has raised, to try to understand them and maybe to reflect on them and, in future, give consideration to them through the process. It is important that we are all here today listening to what he and other Members have to say.

• 6 Dec 2024 · European Union (Withdrawal Arrangements) Bill · Hansard source

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  Precisely—my hon. Friend on the Front Bench says it would be dangerous, and it would be. What about the key provisions of the outer space treaty? What about the agreement establishing the European Bank for Reconstruction and Redevelopment? On and on it goes.

• 6 Dec 2024 · European Union (Withdrawal Arrangements) Bill · Hansard source

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  I will touch on that a little later.

• 6 Dec 2024 · European Union (Withdrawal Arrangements) Bill · Hansard source

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  My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I would be the first to admit that we do not always get these things right—whoever does? What we have to do is try, try and try again, and attempt to do our best in good faith. I will come back to that in a moment.

• 6 Dec 2024 · European Union (Withdrawal Arrangements) Bill · Hansard source

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  My hon. Friend makes a good point. At the end of the day, whether the hon. and learned Member for North Antrim and I like it or not, and I do, they are allies in virtually the biggest trading area—in fact, it is the largest—in the world, but I accept that Members have concerns. I am not trying to deny that, and I am not trying to demean them or push them under the carpet. I also do not want to revisit the pre-referendum process. It is unavailing at this stage to rehash or regurgitate the arguments, warnings, finger pointing, claims, vilifications, passions and tensions that at times dominated the debate in the lead-up to and during the last weeks of the referendum campaign, but the situation we face is a direct result and consequence of that decision—of that, in my view, there is no doubt. I believe it is fair to say that personalities, rather than policies, often dominated the discussions and debates at the time. I also believe that, at times, high-politics issues around sovereignty, self-determination and other factors came into play. However, such matters are really symmetrical. That is the nature of the democratic debate and of the democratic debate that we have in this country, for better or worse.