Patrick Spencer MP: speeches

Speeches

• 21 Jan 2025 · Children's Wellbeing and Schools Bill (First sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q I completely agree on the need for stable safeguarding teams, and they are in the better interests of children, but can you completely rule out any risk that a statutory cap on the use of agency workers will lead to people leaving the profession? Andy Smith: I cannot absolutely rule that out. We have significant churn in social work, and that is part of the challenge—that we are struggling, as a system, to recruit and retain social workers. We have lots of routes into social work, and we are doing lots to promote the role. I am a social worker. I love it, and it is brilliant, even though I have not practised for a number of years now. The measures in the Bill will go some way in setting some rules around how and when social workers can move into agency social work, but I cannot guarantee that it will stop or prevent the churn in the system. The Bill outlines one tool that will help with the stability that we need in the workforce, and that ultimately leads to better outcomes for children.

• 21 Jan 2025 · Children's Wellbeing and Schools Bill (First sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q I want to talk about school improvement. Paul, I think you said earlier that you were confident in the RISE teams as a policy. When we FOI-ed commitments to the RISE teams, we found that the east of England, where my constituency is, will have four people from the RISE teams. We have thousands of schools, and probably hundreds that require improvement, yet only four people. Can you qualify why you have confidence in the RISE teams to deliver a school improvement offer? Can you also speak to what more could be done in the Bill to ensure that there is a proper school improvement offer? Paul Whiteman: I am not sure that I have said that I have confidence in the RISE teams. I think I referenced the RISE teams as having a role in improving standards, in that they will come and support as well. I do not know whether there is a word-for-word record to check that, but if I was saying that I had confidence, that was not intended. I think the problem with the RISE teams, and all the rollout of the Bill’s intentions, is to do with the practical application of the Bill’s provisions later on. Of course, making sure that those teams are properly resourced and funded so that they work is a challenge. There are other issues about the context in which they work, and I think the change of context from a discussion of intervention to a discussion of support is a much more positive footing for those teams to interact with schools locally. Julie McCulloch: It is important to remember that the RISE teams are as much about triage as they are about delivering support. We need the kind of recognition that I started with of where the expertise sits in the system, which is largely within schools and trusts.

• 21 Jan 2025 · Children's Wellbeing and Schools Bill (First sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q Do you think school improvement is best delivered at the Department for Education in a big office somewhere, or in a school with people on location? Julie McCulloch: I think there is a role for both. There is a role for central co-ordination and central support. If the RISE teams deliver, that is what they could provide, but that support for schools does need to be done on the ground. That links to parallel conversations that are going on about how we might change inspection and accountability, as well as doing more to recognise the role that schools and trusts play across the system for school improvement, not just in their own individual institutions. Paul Whiteman: Just to add quickly, I do not see the RISE teams as the only participants in that school improvement. We see one of the roles of the RISE teams as identifying helpful local practice and trying to broker collaboration which, at the moment, sometimes does not happen in the way that it might. Access to multi-academy trusts could do something very well to schools that are not in their local authority.

• 21 Jan 2025 · Children's Wellbeing and Schools Bill (Second sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q You spoke about the importance of intent and accountability in driving school improvement, yet the Bill tilts the balance back towards giving responsibility to local authorities, and ultimately to Sanctuary Buildings the role of school improvement. Does that concern you? Do you think local authorities can do the same job as a multi-academy trust in turning schools around? Sir Jon Coles: That is a very tendentious way of describing the Bill. I think you would struggle to substantiate that. To give you my perspective, whatever this Bill does, I am still going to be accountable for running the schools that we are accountable for running. They will still be in the trust. I will still be line-managing the heads. We will still be accountable for their performance. We will still be accountable for teaching and learning.

• 21 Jan 2025 · Children's Wellbeing and Schools Bill (Second sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q You have sat there and given evidence on your interpretation of why you guys have been very successful in turning schools around. The Bill takes away a lot of the freedoms that you have exploited in turning schools around, and it includes a specific order that prevents schools from becoming academies, and it puts the power in the local authority’s decision on what to do with it. It is dumb. Sir Jon Coles: I don’t think it does that. What I am reacting to is that point, because it does not do that. Sir Dan Moynihan: There will be fewer academies because, by definition, if the Secretary of State is making the decision that a school that fails will not automatically become an academy, that must be because the intention is that some failing schools will not become academies. Therefore, there will be fewer than there would otherwise be. I think that is a huge mistake, because all our experiences are that academy conversions are sometimes very hotly politically contested and opponents are prone to go to judicial review, which can leave children in a situation of failure for months or even more than a year. By using ministerial discretion, the opponents are likely to go to judicial review on those decisions, because they will want to know on what basis that discretion is given. Then the schools that are not considered to be failing enough to become academies will be subject to the new RISE—regional improvement for standards and excellence—teams, which are being run from within the DFE. My view is that if you want to improve a school in difficulty quickly, it is much better to give somebody, such as an academy trust, full power over that school to improve it and to do what is necessary quickly. That must be more effective than a RISE team going in that does not have that authority over the governance of the school.

• 21 Jan 2025 · Children's Wellbeing and Schools Bill (Second sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q If it takes away the automatic academy order— Sir Jon Coles: I would like to see what the Government’s policy underpinning this is. What is the Government’s school improvement policy? Is it their policy to do what you have just said? I do not think the Bill does that. The question is: what is the Government’s preference? Do the Government actually want to see as many or more schools become academies? I don’t think we know that, and I don’t think the Bill says one way or the other what the answer to that is. In due course, we will see a new framework from Ofsted. In due course, I imagine the Government will say how they want the accountability system to work. When the Government say how they want the accountability system to work and Ofsted says how it wants the inspection system to work, we will see whether there will be more or fewer academies, but I do not think the Bill does that one way or the other. That is why we want to see the Government’s overarching strategy for school improvement. I do not want this to be political knockabout; I want this to be about children in schools. I want this to be about how we are going to make the schools system better. That is the fundamentally important question, and it is the only question I care about—how are we going to do better for our children? I don’t want to overreach and say that I know what the Government’s policy is on that, and I don’t.

• 21 Jan 2025 · Children's Wellbeing and Schools Bill (Second sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q For what it is worth. Luke Sparkes, do you have anything to add on top of that? Luke Sparkes: I do not have a huge amount to add beyond agreeing with what colleagues have said. My most significant concern, as I have said, is about conditions for teachers. On the point about capacity within local authorities—I can only speak on the local authorities that we work with, which we try to have positive relationships with—they probably would not have the capacity to do the kind of things you said around school improvements. Trusts were set up purely for the purpose of running and improving schools, and nothing more or less than that, so we have the expertise and capacity to do that school improvement work. I agree with Sir Dan that, when trying to turn around a very challenging school, it is much better when it is within the accountability structure of a trust as they are able to move much quicker. I am interested to see how the regional improvement for standards and excellence teams develop. They seem similar to what national leaders of education were in the past, and they did not always necessarily have the teeth to do what was needed, so I am interested to see how they develop, but for me, the significant concern is about conditions.

• 21 Jan 2025 · Children's Wellbeing and Schools Bill (Second sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q Will this Bill see fewer schools becoming academies going forward? Sir Jon Coles: I am not sure.

• 21 Jan 2025 · Children's Wellbeing and Schools Bill (Second sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q That is an interesting point, Sir Martyn. You had the freedom to hire a teacher when you saw fit. We have just heard that the Government intend this Bill to be predominantly about setting and improving standards in our school system, but it does curtail certain freedoms for schools. Have you any thoughts on the freedoms that are being curtailed in this Bill? Also, in your experience at Ofsted, what are the components that are necessary and common when schools turn around and you see them improve? Sir Martyn Oliver : Lee and I will answer this one together. The components we see are the ones that we set out in the Ofsted framework, on which I am about to consult. The quality of leadership and governance from those running the organisations is always No. 1. Then, very quickly, it is the quality of the curriculum, the ability of teachers to deliver that curriculum, and the outcomes that children receive. It is then everything else: behaviour, attendance, personal development, wellbeing. All these things form part of our inspection regime. We test and check them all. Lee Owston: In my 13 years as one of His Majesty’s inspectors, I have always observed in schools that there is a mix of colleagues who are delivering the curriculum. The absolute beauty and purpose of inspection is to get underneath, on the ground, the difference you are making to the children in front of you, whatever qualification you might have, if any. It means asking questions of the leaders about why they have decided to do what they have done in the context in which they are working. Ultimately we report on whether whatever decision a leader has made ultimately has the intent of making a difference so that, whatever background a child comes from, it is allowing them to succeed.

• 20 Jan 2025 · Topical Questions · Hansard source

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  Suffolk has a huge flooding problem. Part of the problem has been driven by overdevelopment in low-lying rural areas. In her steps to reform the planning system—as well as building more houses, which I totally accept we need to do—can the Secretary of State promise to force councils and developers to properly account for flood risk, ensure that developers are held accountable to residents when developments are badly impacted by floods, and ensure that housing targets favour homes built in dense urban areas?

• 9 Jan 2025 · Public Finances: Borrowing Costs · Hansard source

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  I have heard that the Minister is the future, but all he wants to talk about is the past. The fact of the matter is that, today, borrowing costs are up, business confidence is down and growth is going nowhere. Is it not time to admit that this lefty economic experiment is not working? It is time to cut taxes and cut spending.

• 6 Jan 2025 · Flooding · Hansard source

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  There are loads of landowners in Suffolk who want to take steps to mitigate flooding. The problem is they need a flood risk assessment permit, but FRAPs are expensive and hard to come by, so what can the Department do to make them easier to access and cheaper? That would make a real difference.

• 6 Jan 2025 · Defence Spending: 2.5% of GDP · Hansard source

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  It is all very well spending 2.5% of GDP on defence, but we have to spend it on the right kit. Over the weekend I noted a story about our NATO allies being frustrated with Britain for not investing in appropriate missile defence systems. As the Secretary of State meets his 2.5% commitment, will he commit to investing in surface-to-air missiles, precision and hypersonic missile systems, DragonFire laser systems and counter-drone blocking technology to ensure that the British Army is the most advanced and able in the western world?

• 6 Jan 2025 · Defence Spending: 2.5% of GDP · Hansard source

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  3. What his target date is for increasing defence spending to 2.5% of GDP.

• 6 Jan 2025 · Police Funding: Cambridgeshire · Hansard source

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  My hon. Friend is making an interesting point about the reality of policing in a rural area. My constituency has one of the most consistently underfunded police forces in the country. Two misconceptions are that there is no crime in rural areas, and that if it does exist, it does not require the same manpower as other areas. Both those assumptions are absolutely wrong. The reality is that crime in rural areas is down to county lines, trafficking, cyber-crime and organised crime. Can my hon. Friend attest to the changing nature of crime in Cambridgeshire that we experience in Suffolk, and to the fact that rural crime is not easy to police?

• 6 Jan 2025 · Police Funding: Cambridgeshire · Hansard source

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  As we have just had a debate on child sexual exploitation, it is worth mentioning that we are seeing the nature of crime in rural areas change very quickly, and that the challenge faced by police forces five or 10 years ago is not the challenge that they face today. In Suffolk, the reality is that we have a massive problem with trafficking and a massive problem with prostitution. We have problems that were just not there 10 years ago. It is all very well for Labour Members to say, “What did you do about it?”, but we are debating how to meet the challenges of today, not yesterday. Will my hon. Friend speak to that for a moment?

• 11 Dec 2024 · Non-Domestic Rating (Multipliers and Private Schools) Bill (Second sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q The premise of this policy change, as I understand it, is to rebalance fairness back towards local, community-based properties and businesses, which I am in favour of. But can you speak to the impact that the Bill will have on your institutional investors that invest in large warehouse space? What is the importance of that for the UK economy, in terms of supporting our distribution networks and the many businesses that provide goods to our doorstep? What impact will the change of policy have on those businesses? Rachel Kelly: Our whole economy is interconnected. Those large logistics and distribution warehouses that you talk about will be servicing parts of our retail sector as well. I am sure there will be loads of impacts of this measure that are impossible to predict at this point, but ultimately, increasing the tax rate further makes investment in property harder, and it will make the occupation of property more expensive. Other than that, it is good that the whole economy is shouldering the burden of the higher tax rate, and we would not want that to be intensified further so that individual sectors are solely bearing that burden; I do not think that would be right or sustainable. Ultimately, the higher tax rate will make the tax system less competitive and the occupation of property more expensive.

• 11 Dec 2024 · Non-Domestic Rating (Multipliers and Private Schools) Bill (Second sitting) · Hansard source

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  Is that as a consequence of everything that is going on in this context, or just the business rate changes? Do the parameters of that analysis include VAT? Professor Green: That is the VAT estimate, so I am saying that, if that is the VAT estimate, the business rate relief change is one tenth of that.

• 11 Dec 2024 · Non-Domestic Rating (Multipliers and Private Schools) Bill (Second sitting) · Hansard source

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  I just want to clarify that that analysis was based on the total changes that the sector is undergoing, not just specifically the context of the Bill. Professor Green: Correct.

• 11 Dec 2024 · Non-Domestic Rating (Multipliers and Private Schools) Bill (Second sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q Forgive me, Minister, but is this not a bit of a missed opportunity? The Committee has heard a lot of evidence today that, yes, the measures introduced in the Bill, specifically the ones around supporting local shops and our high streets, are probably very fair and reasonable, and that it is about time, but at the end of the day, business rates are not a progressive way to tax individuals and businesses. Taxing capital always allows for businesses that may seem asset-rich or that have asset liabilities to be taxed unfairly. Why did the Government not go further in looking at alternatives, whether it be a sales tax or a land value tax? I am not a fan of land value taxes—they are another form of capital tax—but why did the Government not look at being more ambitious, instead of retaining a system that may be better in the future but still not ideal? Jim McMahon: Which taxes are fair is always in the eye of the beholder. People have very different views about the fairness of different taxes in the system. In terms of property tax, I am here as the local tax Minister covering business rates and council tax. They are established taxes and they are understood. There are definitely views about whether they are up to date and fit for purpose, and whether they should be reformed, but however clunky the system is, very few people have an alternative that holds water, is fair, and produces the same level of income to support local public services. There is always that balance to be struck. With business rates, you are getting a balance between the inherent value of a property, the rent that it can achieve, and the link to capital. We have heard that there are contradictions in some places where the economy is more suppressed, but it is not entirely intended to do that anyway; it is about reflecting the activity that takes place within a property as much as the bricks and mortar. On that basis, it is probably as good as you are going to get. The question for the Government is how we build in a safety net for those uses that we want to maintain because they are positive for the local community and the economy, but that may be marginal commercially, which is exactly what the Bill is intended to do. But in a self-financing system, as the business rate system is, how do you then draw from other parts of the system in the fairest possible way? I think we have achieved that. Why? Because a £500,000 rateable value is 1% of the business rate system, and it targets the warehouses and distribution centres for companies that are by and large doing well. Most retail, hospitality and leisure businesses on the high street, such as restaurants, fashion retailers and pubs, are saying, “We are only just keeping our head above water.” In a system that anybody would say is quite clunky, I think this Bill is as good as you will get for rebalancing it fairly, while being targeted enough to get the outcome that you want, which is thriving high streets and local communities who can begin to be proud of the places where they live because they are seeing activity, not windows boarded up and roller shutters pulled down.

• 11 Dec 2024 · Non-Domestic Rating (Multipliers and Private Schools) Bill (Second sitting) · Hansard source

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  Okay, so we will go midway, which, at 20,000, would be a 3.5% reduction in the total independent school population. Professor Green: Yes, I think that is right.

• 11 Dec 2024 · Non-Domestic Rating (Multipliers and Private Schools) Bill (Second sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q Sorry, Professor Green, can we just go back? You said that you would expect 10,000 to 20,000 students to transition out of independent schools and into the state system— Professor Green: Somewhere between 10,000 and 30,000, and that would be over a five-year period.

• 11 Dec 2024 · Non-Domestic Rating (Multipliers and Private Schools) Bill (First sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q Thank you very much, Mr Woodall. I was struck by what you said about rural convenience stores and the importance of supporting them, and I could not agree with you more. I represent a rural constituency and in the next-door village there is a shop that has been there for years. I am terrified every year that it will go under, yet it is very resilient. Do you think this Bill should make provision for convenience stores that stand alone within rural areas and villages, where they are the only shop left that sells milk, eggs and newspapers? Do you think it is not just about small and microbusinesses, but those that are the only ones left? Do you think there should be a provision in the Bill for them? Edward Woodall: I certainly think there should be provision of support for rural businesses, particularly those that are the last ones serving a community. They deliver essential services to those communities, and there is a cost to that community if they have to travel elsewhere. Whether it is possible to do that through the legislation is an interesting question. This was picked up in some of the previous evidence that you heard this morning, but there are measures within local authorities’ existing powers to issue discretionary relief to support those locations. That was previously called rural rate relief but it has been taken over by small business rate relief. The challenge is whether local authorities have the funding to administer that relief. I think it is quite challenging to do that in the Bill, because you get into a space where you start adding more complexity by identifying regions or locations in national legislation. Actually, what we often see is that there are more differences within a region than there are between regions. I agree with the principle of what you are saying, but perhaps the existing powers of local authorities to do that are better, but they probably need support and trust from the Government to allow them to administer it well.

• 11 Dec 2024 · Non-Domestic Rating (Multipliers and Private Schools) Bill (First sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q On this remarkable relationship between taxes and rent, are you saying that there is a uniform relationship across geographies, locations and shop types? There is a big difference between Oxford Street and a town high street; are you saying that the behaviour of rents and taxes does not vary across those situations? Stuart Adam: Broadly speaking, yes. The rule of thumb that, in the long run, rent will change with rates almost pound for pound will apply across different types of property and location. There is a difference where the tax on the premises is not fixed, for example where it depends on what the premises is used for: I do not think it is the case that reliefs for particular sectors get reflected pound for pound, because the use of the property may vary.

• 11 Dec 2024 · Non-Domestic Rating (Multipliers and Private Schools) Bill (First sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q Thank you, Mr Gerrard, for coming to give evidence. I want to put on the record my support for the premise of supporting community shops and stores and providing somewhere for people to go to do their shopping, but you mentioned that the provisions in the Bill will make distribution more expensive. Should we not be more concerned that home delivery, which we know is very important to vulnerable customers, will be more expensive as a result of the Bill? Paul Gerrard: I think I am right in saying that the Co-op has the biggest quick-commerce business in the country. People order through aggregators and their orders are delivered from our stores; that is something that we have within our business model. Clearly, there will be costs going on to some of the depots and distribution centres and, to keep this revenue neutral, that will bring extra costs. I think that is the price of revenue neutrality. In the round, the impact on small stores and local shops will outweigh the potential risk around home delivery. As I said, we have a home delivery business; I think our quick-commerce business is the biggest in the country for small, quick deliveries. You are right to flag the risk, but in balance we would say that it is a positive thing that we are supporting brick and mortar shops as much as we can.