Naz Shah MP: speeches

Speeches

• 25 Mar 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-ninth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I will come on to that point. As I have said previously, this Bill will not just create a VAD commissioner, but give them the power to assess their own work. That means it is much less likely they will critically assess the data for any signs of a major problem. We all suffer from unconscious bias, even the very senior legal officials who will be eligible to become VAD commissioners. If the data were sent to the chief medical officers as well as the commissioner, that would mean two sets of officials with different perspectives and fields of expertise looking for problems. We would have a much better chance of locating problems earlier that way. Amendment 172 would change the clause so that the Health Secretary must bring forward such regulations. As things stand, regulations brought forward under the clause would be subject to the negative procedure, which, as all hon. Members know, considerably reduces the amount of parliamentary scrutiny they receive. Amendment 173 would make regulations under the clause subject to the affirmative procedure. I honestly try to see the arguments for and against each amendment, but I have real difficulty in seeing what the arguments against these two might be. Clearly, notifiable events are important information that must be collected nationally for a transparent assisted dying system. Equally, they need to be governed by regulations so that all doctors participating in the scheme have a clear picture of their responsibilities. Finally, on such an important matter, Parliament should be required to vote to accept such regulations, as that will increase the scrutiny from both this House and the other place. I appreciate that my hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley drew my attention to her amendment, which says the commissioner must consult the chief medical officer. However, it does not specify whether the consultation should include data or if it is the beginning of the process; those things are not stated on the face of the Bill. That leaves it open to interpretation, which is why I support the amendments tabled by the hon. Member for Reigate. I thank her for tabling those two very sensible amendments and I urge hon. Members to vote for them. From my perspective, amendment 539 weakens the Bill and we should vote against it.

• 25 Mar 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-ninth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I rise to speak to amendment (b) to amendment 518, and amendment (b) to amendment 520. Although I appreciate that my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge is not pressing her amendments to a vote, it is important to get a few things on the record. I am speaking to these amendments to her amendments because they were tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Lowestoft. Before I speak further, my hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley, the Bill’s promoter, has accepted several amendments tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Lowestoft before—I do not know what her response is, given that my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge is not pressing her amendments to a vote. That has thrown me off track, to be fair, because I was not expecting that. Either way, let us move on. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge for her detailed, interesting presentation to the Committee, though I am not sure I entirely agree with it. Although there might a point, from a legal perspective, where these offences actually do exist in the law, the truth remains, and the facts remain, that when it comes to domestic violence—coercion and so on, which we have debated extensively—we have put the training in, but not putting the offences on the face of the Bill slightly contradicts the conversation we had last week, when my hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley, the promoter, specified that the sentence for somebody who is found guilty of coercion would be put on the face of the Bill; for example, if a person were found to be guilty of coercing somebody who then died, that would carry a life sentence. My understanding is that there would have been no need for the amendments on that, because we already have those laws in existence for murder, and that would be murder.

• 25 Mar 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-ninth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I am surprised by what the Minister says on the cost of the Bill. My understanding from our debates on cost is that, if the Bill is passed, its cost will be footed. Why is there a cost implication to this amendment and not to other provisions?

• 25 Mar 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-ninth sitting) · Hansard source

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  From a public health perspective, we have been having a huge debate for weeks and weeks about whether or not this is a health intervention and whether it should be provided in the NHS or elsewhere. When I was a public health commissioner, we collected socioeconomic data to learn about not just protected characteristics but socioeconomic background. There are concerns that disadvantaged groups are more vulnerable. Would it not be appropriate for the Bill to address those safeguarding issues?

• 25 Mar 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-ninth sitting) · Hansard source

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  Under the Bill as presented on Second Reading, the Secretary of State would have to report to Parliament on how the assisted dying system was functioning, but they would do so only after the system had been in operation for five years. Under amendment 452, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for York Central, the Secretary of State would be required to report annually on how the system was working. The Bill’s original provision for a five-yearly report was extremely surprising. The requirement on the Secretary of State to report to Parliament is a major safeguard that will prompt them and their officials to probe all the available data on the system. It will also allow Members of this House and the other place to go over that information and look for problems, should they arise, and ways to resolve them. It could be one way to identify failings in the system early. Given that we are discussing a system to allow people to take lethal drugs, that is surely what we should aim for. We cannot afford to wait through years of media reports and complaints before then having to investigate alleged problems. If the amendment is accepted, it will not be certain that the Secretary of State’s report and the scrutiny of Parliament will identify problems in a timely way, but that possibility will be increased. If we have to wait five years for a report, it is much less likely that we will spot any problems before they have had terrible consequences. I urge Members to vote for the amendment to replace the five-yearly report.

• 25 Mar 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-ninth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I beg to move amendment 450, in clause 34, page 20, line 33, at end insert— “(1A) The relevant Chief Medical Officer must produce an annual equality impact assessment of access to both palliative care and assisted dying on the basis of— (a) protected characteristics as set out in the section 4 of the Equality Act 2010, (b) socioeconomic status, (c) geographical location.” This amendment will ensure that a full impact assessment is carried out on the access to both palliative care services and assisted dying services.

• 19 Mar 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-seventh sitting) · Hansard source

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  Amendment 447 was tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for York Central; I also speak in support of amendment 523, which was tabled by the hon. Member for East Wiltshire and helpfully clarifies amendment 447. My understanding was that the Bill’s promoter indicated that this was something she would support; I am happy to give way so she can clarify.

• 19 Mar 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-seventh sitting) · Hansard source

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  Perfect. I thank my hon. Friend—I like it when we get to amendments that are supported. Amendment 447 would literally change the word “may” to “must” in clause 30. The first four matters that the clause lists are so important that issuing codes of practice cannot be left just as a choice for the Secretary of State; it must be something that the Secretary of State has to do. It is worth pointing out, as I am learning about this new process, that when we leave it to the Secretary of State, that means a Secretary of State under any Government, depending on how long it takes. It is not necessarily just our Government; it could be another Government. I am just pointing that out, because somebody pointed it out very clearly to me, and I was shocked by that detail. The Bill sets out five areas of responsibility that the codes could cover. They include some of the most consequential matters that this Committee is considering, as set out in clause 30. The first four are doctor’s assessments of “whether a person has a clear and settled intention to end their own life,” and whether that person has capacity to do so, accounting for the effect of depression and other mental disorders on decision making; the “treatment or palliative, hospice or other care available to the person”; the provisions for effectively communicating with them; and “the arrangements for providing approved substances to the person… and the assistance which such a person may be given”. They are all vital and I am pleased that this amendment would ensure that the Secretary of State has to issue codes of conduct, rather than being able to decide that they may not do so. If these matters were not covered by codes of practice, they could be left to individual doctors to interpret, which would mean that doctors would face having to make unfamiliar and complex decisions without the clear guidance that a code of practice would give. That could have created—indeed, it would have created—dangers for both doctors and for people seeking assisted dying. The fifth area of responsibility for the Secretary of State, as set out in clause 30, is codes of practice on: “such other matters relating to the operation of this Act as the Secretary of State considers appropriate.” It seems clear to me that, because the Secretary of State will issue codes of practice for the first four areas of responsibility, they must also issue codes for other matters if they see a need for them. I am confident that we all agree on that. Amendment 523 would make it clear that the Secretary of State can issue codes of practice on any other matters as they see appropriate, but they would not have to do so if they thought there were no other matters that needed such codes. That is a sensible clarification that preserves what the Bill drafters were doing when they wrote the clause. If the Bill passes, we will be authorising doctors to depart from centuries of previous practice. They will face decisions that they have not previously had to take. I am pleased that, if the Bill passes, the Government will be able to set out the clearest possible guidelines for medical professionals in accordance with the many provisions in this clause. Doctors in England and Wales have never previously had to assess whether someone has a clear and settled intention, and it is surely unfair to ask them to work out how to make that judgment without clear guidance from a code of practice. A code of practice also mitigates the risk that different doctors will approach this task in widely differing ways. The truth is that the use of the Mental Capacity Act 2005 is untested in relation to assisted death, where a person will take lethal drugs to end their life. Codes of practice will address important and difficult questions of interpretation. Again, that will give us much-needed clarity, including in the area of the provision of palliative care to people considering assisted dying and how doctors advise them. The independent commission on palliative and end of life care found that knowledge of palliative care among doctors is often limited, so the Secretary of State’s intervention will be much appreciated, and the codes will give a settled direction. I am grateful that my hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley has accepted amendment 447. I look forward to working through the rest of the Bill and getting some more amendments passed.

• 19 Mar 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-seventh sitting) · Hansard source

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  I have taken your advice, Mr Dowd, because my points would have made for a long intervention. First, I gently remind my hon. Friend the Member for Rother Valley that we have not used the word “disingenuous” in this Committee, so I sincerely wish that he reflects on that. Regardless of the debate we are having, everyone on the Committee is very committed to what we are doing here. Secondly, my hon. Friend said that we were making a mountain out of a molehill. I refer again to the issue of forced marriage, legislation on which went through the House when police forces already had legislation to prosecute for it. As legislators, we should have ensured that we raised awareness and trained our police officers and communities to apply that—

• 19 Mar 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-seventh sitting) · Hansard source

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  I thank the hon. Member for East Wiltshire, who has raised some concerns for me. I rise to speak in support of the amendments, but also to raise some points. I share the hon. Gentleman’s concerns, but let me begin by speaking about the bits that I feel pleased with and able to support. My hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley has already explained the amendments and may explain them more later. I am pleased that they tidy up errors in the original construction of the Bill. In its original form, subsection (2) rightly states: “A person who, by dishonesty, coercion or pressure, induces another person to self-administer an approved substance provided in accordance with this Act commits an offence.” Unfortunately, in the Bill as drafted, the penalty for such an act is only a prison sentence of 14 years. It is quite right for that to be the penalty for the offence detailed in subsection (1), namely when someone, “by dishonesty, coercion or pressure, induces another person to make a first or second declaration”, but does not actually succeed in getting them to the end of the assisted dying process. However, it is easy to agree that 14 years is an inadequate penalty for successfully coercing or pressurising somebody into an assisted death. I am glad that my hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley has recognised that problem and has tabled an amendment that would impose a maximum penalty of life imprisonment for such an offence. My hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland Central made a powerful speech in this Committee the other day, in which he said that abusive or coercive people are already likely to be forcing their victims to starve themselves or refuse treatment. That is true, and I thank him for raising that important point. I will welcome all measures to make it harder for abusers to do so and will gladly work with hon. Members to do so. However, I want to sound a strong note of caution. Creating an offence and giving it a strong maximum penalty is only one of the ways to deter abuse and coercion, and perhaps the easiest. As I have mentioned before, the conviction rate for coercion is only about 4%. There are other things that we need to do to deter and prevent abuse. We need the people who may come into contact with it to be aware of what could happen; we need them to be able to spot the signs that it may be happening; we need ways to investigate those signs carefully. Only when we have done those things can we move on to the CPS potentially prosecuting somebody for an offence and, if they are found guilty by the court, to sentencing that person. Those are matters that this clause deals with, and they come at the end of a process. I welcome the amendment tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Lowestoft (Jess Asato), which makes training in domestic abuse and coercion mandatory for professionals working on assisted dying cases, and which my hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley has accepted. However, new training on its own will not be enough to make it near-impossible for abusers to succeed. Having unfortunately had lots of experience in the area—having seen it in my own life, the lives of people close to me and the lives of constituents—I know that sometimes abusers are not subtle. Even so, they can be hard to catch, because their victims cannot recognise that they are being abused. The classic—I wish I had a pound for every time I heard it—is “He’s changed.” There are hundreds of justifications and some are very subtle indeed. These people can be very hard to catch, or they may never be caught at all. I have heard hon. Members say—I think my hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley said it earlier—that the Bill strengthens the safeguards around people who are terminally ill, because those are not there in the first place. I appreciate that idea, but that is just for those people who are terminally ill. I want to strengthen safeguards more generally. In some ways, the Bill offers people a new opportunity to be coercive, controlling and dishonest. That is why I have been banging on about safeguards so much in this Committee; perhaps people find it a bit much, but I do it because abusers are very persistent and clever people and we have to be clever and persistent in how we devise our safeguards against them. Although I welcome the clause and the amendments tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley, I am disappointed that other safeguards have been rejected. I still say that the panel procedure could and should be much tougher. That would not guarantee that abusers would be caught, but it would make it more likely.

• 19 Mar 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-seventh sitting) · Hansard source

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  Amendment 273 would strengthen our position to collect that data, which is really important if we are serious about potentially reviewing the legislation by looking at the loopholes and at which communities are taking up assisted dying. The data in other jurisdictions says that it would be people from affluent backgrounds, but the hon. Member for Richmond Park powerfully raised concerns about the risks, as we heard in evidence from people such as Dr Jamilla and others. I strongly support the amendment, but I will also look at the Equality and Human Rights Commission issues that my hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland Central raised; I thank him for raising them.

• 19 Mar 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-seventh sitting) · Hansard source

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  I beg to move amendment 447, in clause 30, page 18, line 12, leave out “may” and insert “must”. This amendment requires the Secretary of State to issue Codes of Conduct.

• 19 Mar 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-seventh sitting) · Hansard source

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  I am not sure, but I will give it more thought.

• 19 Mar 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-seventh sitting) · Hansard source

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  Would the Government’s intention not be to sign this duty over to a regulator?

• 19 Mar 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-seventh sitting) · Hansard source

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  I was not intending to speak to this group, but I am now trying to find amendment 500.

• 19 Mar 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-seventh sitting) · Hansard source

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  My hon. Friend makes a valid point; that is an issue. If we are going to do this right, are we going to be looking at all six characteristics? That is important, so I agree with him.

• 19 Mar 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-seventh sitting) · Hansard source

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  In responding to my hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland Central, I appreciate that we do not want to put too much detail in the Bill, but with some of the commitments that we have made as a Government on collecting data we need to go further. That is for the simple reason that our equality laws are not right when we look at other issues, such as the gender pay gap.

• 19 Mar 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-seventh sitting) · Hansard source

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  I apologise, Mr Dowd. I will not refer to them. I come back to the point made by the hon. Member for East Wiltshire about DPP consent. I will be grateful if the Minister picks up some of these queries. In this place, we make laws. My experience of the law on forced marriage—I was a victim of forced marriage—was that we made a law but never got any convictions. Very little moved on it, because we already had laws in place to prosecute that offence. I am not saying that the same is happening here, but I draw the Committee’s attention to the fact that we may be making a law that already exists. If it already exists in the Suicide Act, are we just making a law for the sake of putting something on the statute book or on the face of the Bill? We have talked a lot about how we should not complicate things. The word “complication” has been used quite a lot in this Committee. Are we adding another layer of complication by putting this measure in the Bill, when we are not prepared to do so for other things that people feel strongly about? This is also something that already exists. My understanding is that if we were prosecuting coercion, for which unfortunately the prosecution rate is only 4%, that would not need DPP consent. It would be needed, potentially, for assisting suicide, but not for coercion. Do we need some clarity about the application of the law in this regard? Suppose we had a scenario in which somebody was murdered: it was premeditated, and somebody had thought through how to use this process as an avenue to kill that person. I do not want us to make a law that would allow somebody to literally get away with murder. More thought needs to be given to that. I am not an expert or an eminent lawyer like the Minister, but I am concerned by the comments of the hon. Member for East Wiltshire, having looked more closely at the issue. I would welcome the Minister’s comments.

• 19 Mar 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-seventh sitting) · Hansard source

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  I am speaking to the clause, Mr Dowd. I apologise—I will try to be clearer. Clause 25 creates a new offence, and I am trying to give an example of past legislation that speaks to the same principle. If we are creating a new offence that the DPP needs to consent to, and we already have an offence, then are we complicating it for the CPS or our police forces? Take the issue of coercion, because that is what the clause refers to. We only have a 4% conviction rate for coercion. My hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley referred to a horrific case of a lady who was investigated, and talked about her husband’s death. We need to be clearer about what the new offence would lead to. What would it actually protect? Are we protecting cases such as that referred to by my hon. Friend, or we making it more complicated for our law enforcement to police this? Ultimately, if passed, that is what the amendments and the legislation will mean—real-time legislative changes and potential cases to prosecute. That is my point.

• 19 Mar 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-sixth sitting) · Hansard source

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  Absolutely not. I would be horrified if that were the case. I know we have had cutbacks and we do not have the access, but I cannot imagine any refuge of any religious belief in this country turning away a woman in the situation that my hon. Friend describes.

• 19 Mar 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-sixth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I absolutely do not think that, because her abortion rights are set out in law. However, I also think that when that woman is going into a refuge, that refuge will make it clear that she may choose not to. It is about empowering both sides. I am grateful for the right hon. Member’s intervention, but let us follow that argument. Let us say that somebody wants to pursue assisted death, and they want to go into a place, but they are informed that that organisation does not want to provide or has not signed up to providing an assisted death. It comes back to the issue that my hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland Central rightly raised, which is that people do not deliberately go out looking to offend people. If we were in that space—I cannot imagine being there, but I am trying to understand it—would we want to access that service, because its religious belief differs from assisted dying as a principle?

• 19 Mar 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-sixth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I thank my hon. Friend for her intervention, which gives me a lot to think about. That is why I said that I genuinely do not have the answers. I want to have this discussion so that I can make the choice whether to support the amendments. I want to explore this issue further, because it is really important.

• 19 Mar 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-sixth sitting) · Hansard source

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  My hon. Friend makes a really important point, and I absolutely hear what she is saying. If the woman were going into that hospice or care home when she was pursuing an assisted death, I am not sure how that would work.

• 19 Mar 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-sixth sitting) · Hansard source

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  My hon. Friend is absolutely right that we need to clarify this. To sum up, this comes back to some of the questions I have for the Minister, and I wonder whether he can answer some of them. I say that especially because the Committee has had lots of debates on amendments tabled by the Government via my hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley giving the Secretary of State statutory duties. Perhaps the Secretary of State will be able to clarify this issue and make it watertight using regulations. Have we had an assessment of what the impact would be on the provision of healthcare if assisted death were permitted in either a hospice or care home, and is the Minister happy to share that assessment with the Committee? For example, if palliative care specialists are saying, “X amount of people would no longer want to be involved, so there is a real risk of an exodus of specialists from hospices,” we need to know whether there has been an assessment of that. Perhaps the Government can help us to understand that real concern from palliative care specialists. Given that the Minister mentioned his visit to a hospice this week, has he had any discussions with Care England care homes about allowing this process to happen in care homes themselves? How have the concerns of clinical staff about allowing an assisted death in their healthcare facility been assessed, and have those concerns been put to him? How many staff have indicated that they would need to leave the NHS, care providers or hospices if an assisted death were mandated on their premises? Coming back to beliefs, there is also the element of charitable bodies. Have we spoken to the Charity Commission about the impact on those bodies if they were pressured by the Bill into changing their charitable aims? Would they be protected from providing assisted death because of their charitable aims? For me, this debate has raised more questions than answers, and there is much more discussion to be had. I am happy to listen to the hon. Member for East Wiltshire, as I can then intervene and probe further.

• 19 Mar 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-sixth sitting) · Hansard source

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  My hon. Friend makes a very valid point: it is not straightforward. That is why people are tabling amendments and having this discussion—to iron this issue out and make sure we nail it, to make the process as safe as possible. There are laws in our country that protect people’s religious views—for example, we have the Equality Act 2010—and those laws are there for a reason. Speaking to all the amendments, I would not want to see hospices not being funded because they take a certain position. Also, from an employer’s perspective—I appreciate the scenario that has been mentioned, and I will come back to it—they may be recruiting in accordance with their values. We are all in politics, and we all sign up to a particular view of politics. When we recruit our staff, we put on the application form, or other information, that we would like applicants to believe in our value system. That is not discriminating against somebody who has a different value system. That would be my response.