Liz Saville Roberts MP: speeches

Speeches

• 12 Feb 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I find the hon. Lady’s point about the mechanism by which we are making this legislation to be very pertinent. I have been here for almost 10 years. As somebody from a small party, I suspect we are all experiencing how Bill Committees work from the outside, if you like. We need a note of humility. On the one hand, we are all here trying to make this Bill a piece of legislation that is as watertight as possible. That very much then comes over to the Government; I know we are here on a private Member’s Bill because of the nature of the ethical question with this Bill, and I am very comfortable with that, but none the less there is an immense responsibility in the next stages with the questions we raise. Perhaps it might be an idea not to push this question to a vote—although I leave that entirely to the hon. Lady—because that keeps the matter alive. There is an immense responsibility on the Government to listen to the issues that we can only touch upon here and to ensure they are all sewn together.

• 11 Feb 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Eighth sitting) · Hansard source

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  We are discussing the balance of autonomy against considerations such as capacity and coercion. The Mental Capacity Act 2005 has been in existence for 20 years, so it has the advantage of being familiar. Would the hon. Lady agree that if we were to bring in clinical views from different professions, such as from doctors, social workers and psychiatrists, we would have different definitions in place, which would address some of the concerns about different applications?

• 11 Feb 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Ninth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I was glad to hear what the Minister said about the Government accepting the Mental Capacity Act as a basis. We should remember that in 2005, that Act widened the availability of autonomy for individuals. We are discussing that here: how to enable autonomy for individuals. I also really welcome what the hon. Member for Bradford West said about impact assessments. Can the Minister commit now to an impact assessment specifically for Wales? The context of health and social care there is very different from that in England.

• 5 Feb 2025 · Police Grant Report · Hansard source

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  The Minister talks of increasing the draft settlement—[Hon. Members: “Answer the question!”]

• 5 Feb 2025 · Police Grant Report · Hansard source

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  The Minister talks of increasing the draft settlement, but extra funding for Welsh police forces only plugs the gaps left by the Labour Welsh Government reducing police community support officer funding in recent years. Plaid Cymru PCC Dafydd Llywelyn tells us that 56% of Dyfed-Powys police funding now has to come from local residents. Surely the time has come to review police funding in Wales and have devolution of policing on the table.

• 30 Jan 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Seventh sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q Thank you very much to Mr Kruger, and to you, Chair. Professor Lewis, I am glad to say that the Committee appreciates that scrutiny is necessary for Wales-related aspects of this private Member’s Bill. What are the risks of insufficient scrutiny? Professor Lewis: Because this is a private Member’s Bill, it will not have gone through the process, which a Government Bill would have done, of having discussion between Governments as to how this might be sorted out. That impacts on Wales. So it is really important to have a session that focuses, albeit briefly, on Wales. I am grateful to the Committee. This is an England and Wales Bill because certain criminal offences are matters on which the Senedd in Cardiff cannot legislate, and that includes offences that relate to suicide. However, apart from that, the impact of the Bill on devolved matters, if it became law, would be substantial—on the health service in Wales, on social services in Wales and on Welsh society generally. It is important that you take account of that. Indeed, certain aspects of the Bill seem to me to require a legislative consent motion to respect the Sewel convention.

• 30 Jan 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Seventh sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q Could you expand somewhat on which aspects those are? Professor Lewis: As I am sure you are aware, the Parliament here in London can legislate about anything at all—absolutely anything. However, where the power to legislate is given to the devolved legislatures, the Sewel convention states—in the Government of Wales Act, in section 176, I think—that the Parliament in London will “not normally legislate with regard to devolved matters”. That is what is said. Therefore, there are certain aspects of this Bill—I will give you brief detail on that—that, in my opinion, relate to devolved matters. The first is clause 32. This is a very broad clause that would give the Secretary of State very broad powers for the implementation of the Bill within the NHS, including within the NHS in Wales. It seems to me unarguable that that is a matter both on which the Welsh Government ought to be consulted and which would require legislative consent from the Senedd. The second is a cluster of clauses that impose specific functions on Welsh Ministers and on the chief medical officer for Wales. They are clauses 31, 33 and 34. Once more, from a formal perspective, they seem to require a legislative consent motion, so it seems to me that some thought needs to be given as to how that might happen in the context of a private Member’s Bill.

• 30 Jan 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Seventh sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q There was one thing I wanted to ask about, but it led me to another question, which is to Dr Naomi Richards. It seems that much of what we are discussing assumes that being patient-centric is intrinsic and runs day to day through medical culture. Is that actually the case in your experience? If not, is there something within the culture that needs to change to become more patient-centric in order to enable autonomy? Dr Richards : I think you probably know the answer is that it is not patient-centric. In Marie Curie’s “Better End of Life Report 2024”, which was a representational survey with bereaved relatives, a third of people did not think that their relative even knew that they were dying. We still have a long way to go in communicating to people that they are in a terminal phase, so that they can find whatever residual value is in that period of time for themselves and their family. So, no, definitely not, but that is what we are striving for. I am sure that that is what all healthcare professionals are striving for. In terms of assisted dying, it would be so explicit. It is categorically different from other kinds of conversations that are much more open-ended, like goals of care conversations at end of life. This is really quite specific, to the extent that you can actually give doctors a form of words to use, because their request for this procedure needs to be so categorical and there needs to be no ambiguity around that. In a way, this conversation about assisted dying is actually different because it is very up front, it has to be very categorical and it has to be documented. In that sense, it is extremely patient-centric, and there would be no using euphemisms, which happens in end-of-life care, when what doctors think they have told their patients they do not hear. They have heard something else, because euphemisms change according to—well, you do not even have to go so far as to talk about different communities or cultural groups; they change from one person to another. I think this would require quite specific language. It would bring things into a much less ambiguous kind of territory.

• 29 Jan 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Fifth sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q I have a question for Professor Esmail. We heard from the Australian witnesses this morning that there was a period of implementation after legislation of 18 months. Do you think we should have a period of implementation, and what should that comprise? Professor Esmail: I think we will need to have one, because we will need to train people up and put in place all these things. You do not want to pass a Bill that a lot of people cannot access. It will require thought about how we plan this. As with any service, it is much better to think about it and ensure that we cover all options. As I said, the worst thing would be to pass a Bill and not have the right things in place. For example, the training will take a while. I am not saying that it will take 18 months to train someone, but we are talking about training groups of doctors and nurses, and ensuring that the pathways are correct and that the legal system can deal with the requests. That will clearly take time, and we will need a lot of systems thinking about how it all fits together. You cannot specify, and I do not know how good this country is at this, but that is what should happen. It can sometimes happen very effectively and quickly.

• 29 Jan 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Fourth sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q Who has to decide who is appointed to what—which body? Yogi Amin: Oh, I see. I suppose if there is a multi-disciplinary panel, the judiciary would appoint the individuals. It would be a judicial body, essentially. I do not know if you are talking about a tribunal that is multidisciplinary, although I know people shy away from tribunals.

• 29 Jan 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Fourth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I think there is a question, because we are a Committee on a private Member’s Bill, as to how we ascertain these details.

• 29 Jan 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Fourth sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q What I am trying to tease out is what is the responsibility of the Senedd and what is the responsibility of the UK Government. This is going to be challenging, given that health is devolved and has been for 25 years. Yogi Amin: Are you talking about responsibility for resourcing it?

• 29 Jan 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Fourth sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q I have a question for Mr Amin. England and Wales is a single jurisdiction, but health is devolved and we have been discussing an amendment to clause 12 in relation to the court of a multidisciplinary arrangement, as opposed to the High Court. What are the implications for the Committee to understand in how this plays out, with health being devolved but the jurisdiction being single? Yogi Amin: If the legal panel is not a High Court judge, but it is a multidisciplinary panel, then it just draws upon the people in the local areas. The Court of Protection operates in England and Wales and the judges apply the law the same way. That is what the panel would do in this case. Are you more concerned about the make-up of the panel or how they apply it?

• 29 Jan 2025 · Economic Growth · Hansard source

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  On Conservative policies, the Secretary of State will know that universities are also being hammered by Brexit. The number of EU students starting full-time undergraduate courses in the UK fell by 68% between 2020 and 2024 to the lowest level in 30 years. Surely she agrees that our rejoining the single market would help universities to attract more students, as well as boosting economic growth.

• 29 Jan 2025 · Economic Growth · Hansard source

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  We have heard this week that it is growth for Heathrow but decline for Welsh universities. Cardiff University in the Secretary of State’s home city is axing 400 full-time jobs due to a funding crisis, with nursing, music and modern language degrees on the chopping block. This is an education disaster playing out in real time. Will the Government scrap their national insurance hikes to ease the strain on universities?

• 28 Jan 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Second sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q With the GMC, do you have any commentary on the fact that health is devolved in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, and that we have a different set of jurisdictions in some instances? Mark Swindells: There are aspects in which the law will differ, including on capacity. As a UK-wide regulator, we have managed to attend to that in our guidance, so that doctors are as clear on their responsibilities as possible when they lie either side of a devolved border. There is a nuanced point with the Crown dependencies. In law, we are a UK-wide regulator, and we know that the Crown dependencies and Gibraltar will choose to use doctors who are on the GMC register. Officially, we do not legally cover those areas, but it does give us some regulatory purchase there. If a doctor wishes to remain licensed to practice on the GMC register, there is a commitment to follow our professional standards.

• 28 Jan 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Second sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q May I develop that a tiny bit? In that case, you would see the timeline possibly being different for England or Wales in order to respect and take account of those operational differences? Professor Whitty: Yes. I think in principle it would be better to be as close as possible, but if there were important practical differences why it was not going to start on the same date, the more important thing would be to get it right rather than to get simultaneous timings.

• 28 Jan 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Second sitting) · Hansard source

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  Yes. Dr Green: I think the concerns are that patients, particularly those from the Crown dependencies, might be looking for some things—for example, report on life expectancy—from doctors on the mainland. I think it is clear that if a doctor travelled to the Isle of Man or Jersey to do the work there, the GMC would be happy for them to do so, but we would want a clear understanding that they would not be at risk of any other legislative problems—from the DPP, for example.

• 28 Jan 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Second sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q I have a question for Chris Whitty. You said you are here representing the chief medical officer for Wales as well. Health has been devolved for over 25 years, of course. What conversations have you had with the chief medical officer for Wales about the differences in how the NHS operates between Wales and England? What are the implications the Bill Committee should know about? Professor Whitty: First, I have had quite a lot of conversations—not just with the chief medical officer for Wales, but all the other chief medical officers and indeed a much wider range of the medical profession; I wanted to feel that I was giving a central view of the medical profession in terms of the practicalities. My view is that, in a sense, the principles of the Bill are no different between England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, although the legislation would apply only to England and Wales were it to be passed. The operational questions we have been talking about will be either subtly or importantly different between the different jurisdictions for a variety of different reasons. I do not think that is a problem, provided it is in secondary legislation and it allows the different jurisdictions to do things in the way that best suits their own set-up. Again, as we saw during covid, different nations will choose to reach the same end state using slightly different practical routes.

• 28 Jan 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Second sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q Dr Green, you mentioned the different jurisdictions within the United Kingdom and the Crown dependencies. What issues have your members raised in relation to this legislation? Dr Green: In terms of the cross-border issues?

• 28 Jan 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Second sitting) · Hansard source

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  And of course legislation is progressing in Scotland, which has different definitions from the legislation that we are discussing here. Dr Green: Correct.

• 28 Jan 2025 · Prison Conditions · Hansard source

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  I rise as the co-chair of the justice unions parliamentary group. The emergency extra money to tackle the squalid state of our prisons is welcome, but given the £2 billion maintenance backlog, the reality is that the extra money will not touch the sides. This shows exactly why the privatisation of prison maintenance is a failed model. Private contractors may win contracts on low bids, but billions come in as extra cost later. Does the Minister seriously think that current prison maintenance providers offer good service and value for money to the taxpayer?

• 28 Jan 2025 · Prison Conditions · Hansard source

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  11. What steps she is taking to improve prison conditions.

• 28 Jan 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Third sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q I have a question for Alex Ruck Keene. I noticed the concerns in your evidence about presumption of capacity, and I know that you have written in the past about concerns over different disciplines having different definitions of capacity. Later on in your evidence, you also mention multidisciplinary consideration of circumstances in assessing eligibility. How might that multidisciplinary eligibility assessment alleviate some of your concerns in relation to capacity decisions? Alex Ruck Keene: We have capacity, but we also have to make sure that it is settled, informed and voluntary, and that we do not have things like pressure or influence going on. It is important to make it clear that we are not just saying that this is about all the weight going on capacity. For instance, if you have social workers involved—if you have, say, palliative care social workers involved, assuming it is a palliative care situation—they are going to be far better informed about what options might be out there than a doctor, potentially, depending on the doctor. Social workers more generally might well have more expertise in picking up signs of coercion or influence than a doctor, but I do not necessarily want to get into, “Some disciplines are good at X” and “Some disciplines are good at Y”—I have come across brilliant examples and bad examples in both zones. It is partly about multidisciplinariness and also about the fact that you have more than one person trying to talk it through. When I train, I always try to tell people that 85% of capacity assessments are not all that difficult —they are just made difficult because you do not have time or you are not listening—but 15% are more difficult. I think a lot of these will be in the 15% zone, and in that zone, the more people you can have thinking about it, so long as they have an agreed framework within which to think, the more reliable, transparent and accountable the outcome is going to be.

• 23 Jan 2025 · ECO4 and Insulation Schemes · Hansard source

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  I welcome today’s statement, but it is not just about solid wall insulation. It is not right that anybody has to take any ECO4 supplier to the small claims court to get recompense for fixing shoddy work. TrustMark as a process is intrinsically ill-designed to protect vulnerable people, because it presumes that acceptance of a supplier on to the scheme is a sufficient safeguard. Will the Minister consider—I bear in mind what she has already said—empowering local authorities to sign off work before a penny is paid?