Kieran Mullan MP: speeches 2025

Speeches

• 27 Nov 2025 · Public Office (Accountability) Bill (Second sitting) · Hansard source

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  You are doing a great job.

• 27 Nov 2025 · Public Office (Accountability) Bill (Second sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q Are those your key points? I have some further questions. Cindy Butts: They are my key points, but I think there is one more that I want to bring to your attention. As the Bill is currently drafted, victims and bereaved families have no formal role in shaping guidance, oversight or the implementation of the duty of candour. Given that the Bill is derived from the experiences of the Hillsborough families and so many others who have faced tragedy, those ought to be hardwired into the Act itself so that reform is something that is never done to them, but always with them. There should be a way in which families have a formal role, working alongside the Ethics and Integrity Commission, to ensure that the Bill is not procedural and that it works in practice. That is fundamentally missing, and it should be corrected.

• 27 Nov 2025 · Public Office (Accountability) Bill (Second sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q This is a separate line of questioning, but the question of whether the experience of the coroners process is always a positive one for families is not a new issue. Some of my constituents have had what I think I can fairly say were not positive experiences, where coroners have had to be changed, and only because those constituents raised concerns. Do you still have concerns that there is not consistency in the fair management of inquests, from the perspective of bereaved families? Judge Durran: Every coroner is an independent judicial office holder. I can give guidance, but every case and every inquest will be fact-specific. One of my responsibilities as chief coroner of England and Wales is to provide leadership with the intention of promoting consistency among coroners. A considerable piece of work in achieving that objective was the “Chief Coroner’s Guidance for Coroners on the Bench”, which is a bench book—a “how to do it”. That has received a very favourable response for helping, I hope, to frame decision-making processes. It is a publication; although its intention is to assist coroners, it is a public-facing document and available for anyone who is an interested person. Particularly—as I have emphasised at training, which is another of my responsibilities for coroners—bereaved families who are not represented in inquests should have access to that publication, because they can use that document to hold coroners to account in saying, “You are not following the Chief Coroner’s guidance, designed to promote consistency.” I am sad and disappointed that people may not have had a positive experience from an inquest, but we are, I believe, making considerable progress in promoting greater consistency.

• 27 Nov 2025 · Public Office (Accountability) Bill (Second sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q I am the shadow Minister. Could you begin by telling us, given your experience of what happened at Grenfell and the investigations that followed, the key things that you think the Bill needs to address? Edward Daffarn: Ordinarily, I find it much easier to respond to questions, but in this instance I made some notes that I would like to try to communicate to you. It could go wrong and I might have to ask you to ask me questions. The thing with Grenfell is that it is so complicated. There are so many tributaries and so many issues. I have spent a little bit of time trying to relate what happened to us at Grenfell to the Bill. I have broken it down into three parts. The first part is an introduction explaining why the Bill is so important and why it is relevant to Grenfell. A lot of the relevance to Grenfell is also relevant to all the other public inquiries and investigations that have taken place over the last 30 years—on Hillsborough, infected blood, the Manchester Arena. There are so many similarities, but I would like to spend three or four moments on each. The second part is about the need for culture change within organisations, and how the Bill can assist that. The third part that I wanted to address is how the Bill can assist in getting to the truth in public inquiries. Please bear with me; if things go wrong I will let you know and ask you to ask me questions. At the heart of what I believe is that we need this Act to be implemented without delay and not to be watered down. There is a statement by Bishop James Jones: “The patronising disposition of unaccountable power”. That was the title of his Hillsborough report. Those words are so powerful. They sum up exactly what our position was as bereaved people and as survivors after the Grenfell Tower fire—not only after the fire but in the way we had been treated beforehand. It was this total powerlessness against forces that we had no control over. I truly believe that this Bill can act almost as a silver bullet that could change all that. I will go into some of the reasons in a minute. I want to talk a little bit about our public inquiry. At the beginning of the inquiry, Richard Millett, who at the time was a QC, asked all of the corporate core participants to take responsibility, tell the truth and help us to get to what we needed to know. At the end of the public inquiry, he said that the “merry-go-round of buck-passing” still played and that the melody was still being heard. That was after nearly five years of a public inquiry—the truth was not being heard. In their closing statements to the public inquiry, the core participants gave evidence for two-and-a-half days. Again, Richard Millet stated that if everything the core participants said was true, not a single person was to blame for the Grenfell Tower fire. Imagine sitting in and listening to that evidence over all those years and then, at the end of it, not a single person had taken responsibility for what had happened to us. The inquiry concluded that the core participants were guilty of “systematic dishonesty”, which led to the totally avoidable deaths of 72 people. We need to use this Bill to make sure that nothing like that can ever happen again. Grenfell United attended an inquest family day and left understanding that the families wanted three things. They want to stop public officers from lying and covering up when things go wrong. They want a duty to proactively assist and disclose information to public inquiries. They also want parity of arms—true proportionality in representation in terms of legal aid in front of public inquiries. How would the Bill address those changes? Obviously, there is the duty of candour, transparency and frankness, a duty to go further than not telling lies, but to proactively assist in getting to the truth in public inquiries, and to change the culture of public authorities and the public officers within those authorities to instil a code of conduct, ethics and values. That is my first part—that is how I would like us to understand why the Bill is so important. I want to talk a little about changing the culture inside these organisations. Again, I go back to what Bishop James Jones said: we need to dismantle the patronising disposition of unaccountable power that these organisations feel entitled to exhibit. The Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea’s tenant management organisation, which was our landlord, behaved like a mini mafia. It was a non-functioning organisation that bullied and intimidated residents. Anyone who put their head above the parapet was targeted. The Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea, whose duty it was to monitor and ensure that the TMO behaved in a proper way, failed completely in its duty to do that. As a result, as residents, as leaseholders, we were not treated with respect, and we were not treated with dignity. It is interesting to think about those words—respect and dignity—alongside the duty of candour. People need to be treated in that way. Along with the duty of public authorities, and public officers, to tell the truth, and on candour, transparency and frankness, we also need to look very carefully at their duty to instil a code of conduct and ethics, which must be signed up to by the organisations. I am a social worker. Every year, I have to renew my commitment to our code of conduct and ethics. When I was engaging with the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea and its officers and councillors, I was amazed at their complete lack of understanding of their role as public servants. As a social worker, if someone does not want to work with me, I have to find it inside myself to provide exactly the same service to them as to someone who does want to work with me. There can be no discrimination. At the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea, if we challenged them in any way, they would come after us, as individuals. I used to feel that as a lowly social worker I understood my role as a public servant; the leader of the council at the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea had no idea about those responsibilities. It is really important that, as part of this Bill, we instil a code of conduct and ethics that is meaningful, published and promoted, that is part of training, yearly appraisals and interview processes, and that is, possibly, monitored by the public advocate as well, to make sure that we try, somehow, to change the culture inside these organisations. It is not a silver bullet, because social workers have values and ethics, and things go wrong in social work. Ofsted has values and ethics and, as we heard previously, things go very wrong in Ofsted. It is not a silver bullet, but it is really important. In terms of criminal sanctions, there must be some bite behind these duties. The other thing with criminal sanctions is that cover-ups normally happen from the top down and not from the bottom up. If junior members of staff are being bullied by senior staff members to tell lies and take part in a cover-up, a criminal sanction would allow them to refer to their legal obligations not to commit a criminal offence. It would give them a way out of that. In the Grenfell Tower disaster, there were eight public bodies and 27 commercial organisations. We need to make sure that those commercial organisations, which were carrying out a public function, are also responsible for duty, candour and transparency, and that they also have to sign up to the code of ethics and values. We must ensure that they behave in the same way that the public authorities have to behave. Finally, I want to turn to how the Bill can assist in public inquiries. I briefly mentioned the “merry-go-round of buck-passing”— which was still turning: after all the evidence was given by the core participants, there was no one to blame for the fire. As bereaved and survivors, many of us attended the public inquiry and sat through months and months of this evidence. Very naively, I think we always believed that the public inquiry was the one thing that would give us the truth and allow us to leave with an understanding of why 72 people died. I always thought, “Well, these people will come and the truth will give us what we want, and it will set them free.” There were probably 200 witnesses who appeared at the public inquiry, and I can count on the fingers of one hand how many turned up and gave evidence from their heart. I sent some evidence to you—a seven-minute tape from the public inquiry, put together by Forensic Architecture, of public officials basically just saying, “I can’t remember. I can’t recall.” We had Robert Black, who was the chief executive of the TMO, responding to a question from Richard Millett, the QC of the public inquiry, by saying, “Pass”—like he was on “Mastermind”, like this was some sort of quiz that he could take part in or not take part in. I am sure you have seen Eric Pickles. Towards the end of the public inquiry, he advised Richard Millett that he should use his time very wisely, because Lord Pickles had other, more important, things to do with his time that day. That is the kind of contempt and disrespect that we were treated with during the public inquiry, and I truly believe that the Bill forces public authorities to go beyond just telling the truth in public inquiries and that it forces them to provide more in-depth information. I think it would be really helpful if public inquiries and public officials were invited at an early stage to provide position statements about their organisation. That would do one of three things. It would help to speed up the public inquiry process, it would reduce the pain and suffering of families, because the process would not take as long, and it would reduce the cost on the public purse. I thought quite hard about those things, and I hope that I have managed to communicate them in a way that was not too quick and that was understandable.

• 27 Nov 2025 · Public Office (Accountability) Bill (Second sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q We heard in evidence this morning about a sense that prevention of future deaths reports are made but nothing is necessarily done to follow up on them. Dr Chopra, my understanding is that it is essentially the CQC’s job to take into account anything that is of material interest in an organisation, such as a prevention of future deaths report, and that you see it as your job to follow those reports up and at least attempt to ensure that they are listened to. Dr Chopra: We get notified of incidents. To be very frank, we are a responsive organisation when incidents occur; when we are made aware of PFD reports, we look at them. Because of the way that we look at things, as I said, we are responsive rather than taking a proactive view, but yes, that is right. One thing that might be helpful is to bring those recommendations to a national body. We are pinning a lot on the National Quality Board at the moment, but it would be helpful to bring recommendations to a central place that would allow their dissemination so that they land not just in the organisation where the incident occurred but across the piece.

• 27 Nov 2025 · Public Office (Accountability) Bill (Second sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q I am the shadow Minister. Some members of the Committee had the opportunity to meet deputy heads of the security services last week. One thing they talked about was that individuals within an organisation might have one version of events that they understand, but the wider organisation has other information pertaining to that that they do not understand, so they have a perception of what might be in the public interest and what it might be reasonable to disclose as an individual, but that is not there in its entirety. Given your previous role, can you comment on what the challenges might be for the security services in managing the additional duties that this Bill will place on them? Lord Evans of Weardale: First, I should make it clear that I am a strong supporter of this Bill. I think it is very timely. It is clear that victims, members of the public, have been badly let down by public authorities over a number of years. I gave evidence to the infected blood inquiry. It is very clear that something needs to be done and I support the Bill. I support the inclusion of the intelligence services in the Bill and strongly support chapter 2, which I hope we will be able to get on to. There is as much need for the intelligence services to be accountable as there is for any other public authority. It seems to me right that they should be included in the scope of this Bill. I also recognise that there are particular circumstances that mean that the mechanism for achieving accountability and candour might need to be different. Certainly from my previous role heading the service, there are two areas that I think are of potential concern. The first and most important area is that members of the service are under existing legal constraints on what they can say. It needs to be clear how they would be able to cope with this duty of candour, which will be set against their other existing legal duty of protecting information and handling sensitive information appropriately. That needs to be resolved, and I believe that the mechanism laid out in the Bill resolves it acceptably. This is not about institutional defence of the agency or its reputation. The sort of information we are talking about is such that, for instance, its disclosure could identify a human source, which could lead to their exposure and potentially their death in the worst circumstances. It could also be information we have about an enemy or threat to the UK, whether that be a terrorist or foreign state, and if that state or terrorist group knew that we had the information, they could probably work out where we got it from. They would then be able to take steps to stop us from obtaining it in future, which would mean that we were less able to protect the country against foreign intelligence activity or terrorist planning, and therefore the ability of the agency to safeguard the country would be reduced. That is what you are trying to protect. You have already cited my second point, which I acknowledge but do not see as the key point, and it is that any individual desk officer in MI5—I think this would probably be the same in MI6 or GCHQ—may see a very small part of a picture, but, particularly for very sensitive information, the need-to-know procedures are in place. They will not necessarily understand why a particular piece of information is very sensitive, or actually what the bigger picture is. Bilaterally providing that information between an individual and an external scrutiny body brings two problems. First, the external scrutinising body may not be equipped to handle highly sensitive information, and therefore it might go astray, even with good will. Secondly, it is important that the overall understanding of the agency is disclosed to the investigating body, not just one picture or one part of it. That is why I think it makes sense for the responsibility to rest on the head of the agency. I also looked with great interest to see what pressure there was on the head of the agency to respond to this. The fact that in certain circumstances there is a criminal liability on the head of the agency struck me as being quite a strong measure, and a measure that is appropriate in the circumstances.

• 27 Nov 2025 · Public Office (Accountability) Bill (Second sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q Professor Waters, first I want to acknowledge the circumstances that bring you here today, which is not something that any of us would want to experience. Condolences on your loss. What was your experience of applying for legal aid, and what difference did it make to you that you did not get representation? Professor Waters: It was two years ago exactly on this day that the inquest into my sister’s death started. We found out four days before the commencement of the inquest that our application for legal aid had been refused—four days. In preparation for that and the possibility that we might have to go into the inquest not represented or foot the bill ourselves, or the lawyers have to do it pro bono—why should they?—I read over 2,000 pages of disclosure evidence. It was very traumatic, as you can imagine, to read some of the details of what my sister went through and some of the medical reports and so on. That alone was traumatising. A freedom of information request recently found out that Ofsted, which is one of three public bodies—interested parties—that our family were up against, spent £68,000 on external counsel alone and could not provide us with the figures for how much it had spent in its internal legal department. Ofsted has its own legal department—but it still spent £68,000 of taxpayers’ money on external counsel. Presumably, the other interested parties, Reading borough council and Berkshire NHS trust, will have spent similar amounts of money and also have their own internal legal departments. My family, as taxpayers, were indirectly paying the legal fees of the three bodies that had done harm to my sister. That just speaks volumes on the imbalance of power in this system. It is really retraumatising that at your absolute lowest—and I really hope that no one in this room has been where I was—it is at that point that you suddenly have to navigate this entirely alien system. You do not have lessons at school on what an inquest is, where you find an inquest lawyer, what a prevention of future deaths report is, what kind of coroner you want or what kind of inquest you are going to get. But suddenly, when you are absolutely traumatised by a terrible and preventable death of a loved one, you have to find this stuff out. I am here speaking to you. I have been speaking publicly about what our family has been through and continues to go through—but for every person like me and the other witness, how many hundreds of people are there who are crushed by that system and are unable, for whatever quite legitimate reason, to stick up for themselves and inform themselves? Parity of arms is absolutely crucial and it cannot come soon enough.

• 27 Nov 2025 · Public Office (Accountability) Bill (Second sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q I am the shadow Minister. Beginning with Mayor Burnham, what are the key differences between the Bill that you presented to Parliament and this Bill as currently drafted? Andy Burnham: It substantially meets the provisions of the 2017 Bill. It is 80% to 90% there. Previous to its introduction to Parliament, Mayor Rotherham and I worked closely with the Government and got it to a point where we felt it was worthy of the name “Hillsborough law”—although there were still further issues to be picked up by amendments, which the Government agreed to as part of the negotiation process. One of those issues was the extent to which the duty of candour applies. I can tell the Committee more about my experience in convening inquiries at a Greater Manchester level, which may be relevant to the discussions. I also wish to see the parity of legal funding for bereaved families stated more clearly as a principle in this Bill, with a firm guarantee of what that means for families rather than a fairly loose entitlement as it is at the moment. We can go into the details, should you wish, but the Bill is substantially there. With legislation of this kind, it does not help anybody if loopholes, grey areas or high hurdles are created in terms of the tests for duties to apply. It is going to be helpful for everybody if the Committee and Parliament can make it absolutely plain what this Bill is intended to cover and what it is not. That will empower the public, which is, at the end of the day, what this Bill is about. There is still some work to do in certain areas to remove some of those loopholes and grey areas. I think that I speak for Steve as well in saying that we have been advised throughout by the lawyers of the Hillsborough Law Now campaign. We strongly support the evidence that they have put to you as a Committee today.

• 27 Nov 2025 · Public Office (Accountability) Bill (Second sitting) · Hansard source

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  Thank you, Judge. Judge Durran: It is either that or “Chief”, and I think perhaps “Judge” sounds more formal.

• 27 Nov 2025 · Public Office (Accountability) Bill (Second sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q Thank you, Ms Butts, for coming to give evidence. I am Kieran, the shadow Justice Minister. I do not know whether you heard any of the earlier evidence, but one of our discussions was around the time it can take, through the public inquiry process, for people to get answers to their questions about what has happened to their loved ones or to themselves. An example that was brought to our attention was how the independent panel, which obviously took place long after the event, was not a public inquiry process, but was able to secure answers for families. I have a sense that the role of the IPA might be a way of addressing the gap between the need to have a public inquiry—with or without a duty of candour—and the need to get people answers more quickly. In your role as the independent public advocate, do you feel that you should have more powers, for example to compel the publication of records and information that might help families to get answers in a shorter timescale, as was suggested today? Cindy Butts: At the moment, I have gateway powers. Basically, that means that I only have access to information that families themselves should have access to. Although I have been in post for only two months, that provision has not quite yet been tested as to whether I need additional powers. But I absolutely recognise and appreciate the concerns of families in particular that where truth is withheld—in the case of Hillsborough, that was for many decades—that prevents them from accessing the truth. It has not been tested yet, and there might be a case for additional powers to allow me to have access to that information.

• 27 Nov 2025 · Public Office (Accountability) Bill (First sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q Mr Guest, can you see any prosecutorial disadvantages to the new offences compared with the existing law? Tom Guest: No. In general, we were supportive of this project from the outset—not because we were having difficulties with the common law offence, but because it sets it out much more clearly to have it contained in an Act. It clears up certain areas such as, “Who is a public official?” and, “How should a jury assess seriousness?” We have not identified disadvantages with the misconduct provisions.

• 27 Nov 2025 · Public Office (Accountability) Bill (First sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q I ask the same question, but on reasonable excuse versus public interest. Professor Lewis: That is less clear. The one thing I could say quite confidently is that there is a significantly lower burden of proof on the defendant. The defendant just has to introduce some evidence to raise the possibility of a reasonable excuse, and the burden will then be on the prosecution to disprove the reasonable excuse beyond reasonable doubt—so to the criminal standard. That difference in relation to the burden of proof is favourable to the defence. On whether there is a material difference in relation to a public interest defence versus a reasonable excuse defence, I think reasonable excuse would probably encompass things that would fall within a public interest defence and might be broader, but without anything on the face of the Bill constraining what a reasonable excuse is, it is difficult to say. I suppose, eventually, there will be case law that will deal with the question of what does and does not constitute a reasonable excuse in these circumstances.

• 27 Nov 2025 · Public Office (Accountability) Bill (First sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q But potentially? Professor Lewis: If someone were in public office, which I think is not necessarily the case based on the clauses before us, it is possible that the seriously improper act offence could be considered. I think that is as far as I can possibly help. Tom Guest: Turning to the duty of candour extension, which directly addresses this, I think our straight answer is that “direct contractual relationship” is in the Bill for a reason; of course we would look at the evidence and the precise contract, but it does appear limited to that. I agree with what Professor Lewis said: when you come to the misconduct in public office offences, schedule 4 is intended to reflect existing public offices, but every attention should be paid to it to decide whether it has become any wider or more narrow, and whether there is good reason for that. We are not expressing a view but, if we are going to replicate the existing common law, we need to make sure that schedule 4 does so effectively.

• 27 Nov 2025 · Public Office (Accountability) Bill (First sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q But are you aware of examples that have gone above those limits? Tom Guest: I am not aware of them. There is always a question of overlap. If you have another offence, such as an offence of rape, then we would be charging rape, and we have the maximum sentence of life there.

• 27 Nov 2025 · Public Office (Accountability) Bill (First sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q The common law offence is unlimited in its penalties, essentially. Do you, as prosecutors, sometimes advocate for sentences above what will be the statutory limit to the sentences for the new offences? Tom Guest: The statutory limits introduced by the Bill seem to fit the culpability in the two offences. The breach of duty offence is clearly far more serious because it engages a duty to prevent death or serious injury. We see the statutory penalty as high and suitable, so far as it is for the CPS to say that. Similarly, the seriously improper acts offence perhaps does not have the same level of culpability but it still has a significant penalty. It is within the remit of the unduly lenient sentence scheme, so we have not identified any concerns about the proposed penalties.

• 27 Nov 2025 · Public Office (Accountability) Bill (First sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q I am Kieran, the shadow Justice Minister. I want to give my sincere condolences to all of you and all of the families for what you have been through. I want to commend your persistence, courage and bravery in carrying on and campaigning over such an extended period, as you have all done. It really is remarkable, and we are all very grateful. I will not ask many questions, as there are MPs on the panel who have worked with you and know you very well, and I am sure that they will be keen to ask questions. I will just ask whether any of you want to talk about how things might have been different, and how the experience might have been different for you, had you known what had happened from the start and had truth from the outset. Charlotte Hennessy: My experience is very different from Margaret’s, Sue’s and Steve’s, because I was so young. I did not know the magnitude of what had happened until the Hillsborough independent panel released its report. That was the only opportunity I had to access evidence statements and be able to piece a timeline together of what actually happened to my dad. That was when I really realised the magnitude of what had happened. I want to acknowledge the Hillsborough family members who are not here today—if it were not for them, and for the survivors who stood by their truth even when they were shut down by those who were supposed to protect them, and if they had not fought the fight, children like me would never have known the truth of what happened. For me, it only got worse from there. It was like Hillsborough had just happened at that time, because that was when I realised that my dad’s original cause of death was completely untrue—even down to his pathology report being untrue. It was not how my dad died. I will not speak about the details here, but I will send them privately to the Committee. It has had a profound impact. Had all that information been available, I do not think I would have had to spend my whole teenage and adult life fighting for the truth of what happened to my dad. It now impacts my own children, like Margaret said earlier. My husband is here in the room today. We have had to educate our children on the seriousness of those lies, on the impact of the cover-up, and on the fact that their granddad would have been buried in a lie if it were not for those good people.

• 27 Nov 2025 · Public Office (Accountability) Bill (First sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q Part of the Bill is about creating parity of esteem in legal advice and support, and one of the biggest reasons for that is that it costs money. Have any of you experienced financial loss as a result of everything you have had to do? Margaret Aspinall: Yes. The family has had great financial loss. As I said earlier, I had four other young children. The youngest was only six—the same age as Charlotte—at the time, the next was seven, one was nine, and then a son who was fifteen going on sixteen. They had an absolutely terrible time. I had to change their schools because of things young children were saying. Innocent children were saying terrible things about how their brother died and how it was caused. Obviously, it was what they were listening to, so I had to change their schools. It was a very difficult thing. My husband was at the game as well, and he has never been to a game since. He just cannot face going to another football match. My children went through a terrible time, like Charlotte did. At the same time, I realised something when Sue and I were working in the Hillsborough office a few years ago. A phone call came through, and Sue said to me, “Margaret, there’s somebody on the phone for you.” I picked the phone up, and it was my granddaughter, who was 10 at the time; she said, “I would like an appointment to see my nan, please.” I thought, “I’m doing to my grandchildren exactly what I’ve done to my own children.” I was working so hard, and not just myself, but others—though I can only speak for myself—to get to the truth of Hillsborough. The lies and the cover-up, as Charlotte said, were an absolute disgrace. When it came to the funding, we had to pay for every court case we went to. I am even talking about even judicial reviews, scrutiny, inquests, all different things. We paid every step of the way, and they had lawyers paid for by the state—from our taxpayers’ money—while we had to go cap in hand, trying to fight for the truth that was there all along, and for justice. What families went through—I cannot forgive that. My children grew up with Hillsborough and my grandchildren are growing up with Hillsborough now, 36 years on. They are still not seeing their nan because I am busy doing other things to try to get a Hillsborough law, alongside others—good people, unsung heroes, who are supporting this campaign. They have done so much to change a system that must be changed—not for us, because it is too late for us—but for the good of this nation. The law has got to be changed, in all its entirety. Steve Kelly: On the point of finances, when Hillsborough happened, obviously your finances just did not come into it. I will speak personally—I was a taxi driver at the time, and taxi drivers never earn good money, do they? You are always struggling, but you get by. I remember that I had to go to Sheffield to find my brother, I came home, and the last burden that I wanted to give to my mother and my sister Joan was issues of finance. When the disaster was coming to the fore and all the information was coming out, we were obviously making plans to bury our brother. There was only one thing you could do at that time: you would go and borrow the money. I went to the bank and borrowed the money. I never, ever went to my mam and told her how much it was. Again, she had just lost her son, and she did not know how. You just bore those problems and lived through them for years, on the financial side alone, with paying loans back and so on. That is why we want this law in—we beg you to bring this law in—because the trauma alone of losing someone, and then the trauma again of all these years fighting back, is so difficult to bear. The financial burden was not even a second thought—I appreciate the question, but it was nothing to do with us really. We got through it. People should not have to get through things. People should be helped and supported. This law, hopefully, will do that.

• 27 Nov 2025 · Public Office (Accountability) Bill (First sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q It is obviously difficult to talk about hypotheticals, but I think it is potentially helpful, because we are talking about legal terms that not even members of the Committee will necessarily be familiar with. Taking first subjective versus objective awareness, in what sort of scenarios might that create a difference in how the Bill operates? Professor Lewis: What it does is expand the scope of the offence. In circumstances where the defendant was not aware—did not realise—that a reasonable person would regard the act as seriously improper in relation to the seriously improper acts offence, or was not aware of the duty in the context of the breach of duty offence, under our recommendations, the defendant would not be liable. Under the provisions in the Bill, however, if the jury were of the view that the defendant ought to have realised the relevant fact, that would suffice. It is an expansion of liability.

• 27 Nov 2025 · Public Office (Accountability) Bill (First sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q I will pick up on the earlier questions on contractors and subcontractors. If I put in everybody’s mind the Post Office Horizon scandal, where you had contractors and potentially subcontractors, do you think that there would be any obstacles to prosecuting a scenario similar to the Post Office Horizon scandal because of contractor and subcontractor limits? Professor Lewis: All I can say in relation to the misconduct in public office offences, the ones that the Law Commission recommended, is that we recommended the Government consider the inclusion of contractors. They have not been included separately in schedule 4 but, as Mr Guest said, I do not think I am in a position to comment on whether in particular cases, particular offences may have been committed, because one would need to see the evidence and one would need to be a prosecutor in order to take a view on that.

• 27 Nov 2025 · Public Office (Accountability) Bill (First sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q We have time for you to expand slightly on what you want to see change in those three elements. Pete Weatherby: On command responsibility, the Bill, and the original Bill, created both individual and corporate duties, and quite rightly so. The problem with the corporate duties is that the offences require a very high threshold. They require either intent or subjective recklessness, which means that the person has to foresee the risk but nevertheless decide to take it. It is not impossible, but it is extraordinarily difficult, to apply that to an inanimate object like a corporate body. In the original Bill, we imposed some corporate duties but put the responsibility for enforcing them on the heads of the public body involved; this has not quite been followed through in this Bill. We would like to see a simple amendment to clauses 5 and 11, as we set out in the briefing, to put that legal responsibility on the chief officer or the chief executive of the public body. Without that, a lot of the duties in the Bill are reduced to something that looks good but is rather ineffective. We have said all the way through that our watchwords are “practical” and “effective”. If law is not practical and effective, don’t bother. That is the first thing. On the intelligence services, some of the many campaigns behind a Hillsborough law include the Manchester Arena families. There was a major failure of the intelligence services and the way they dealt with the aftermath of the bombing. This is all in the public domain: they had intelligence that related to the bomber and the bomber’s activities, and they did not act on it. The chair of the public inquiry, having heard closed evidence, came to the conclusion that they should have acted on it. Although he could not say whether it would have made a difference, it might have made a difference. Obviously, that is very important. The problem beyond that was that MI5 then put an incorrect narrative—a false narrative—to the inquiry itself. The judge, the chair of the inquiry, found that the corporate case that it had put was incorrect. There are other examples. Obviously, we have very limited time. I know you are going to hear from Daniel De Simone, the BBC reporter, this afternoon. His case is another one where the security services have fallen short in terms of candour. These are not the only examples. We are very keen to apply the duty of candour and all of the duties here as much as possible to the security services. The objections to that are that it might interfere with national security. I represented seven of the Manchester Arena families, and I can say very clearly that there is no intention to interfere with national security whatsoever—quite the opposite. The Bill drafted by us, and this Bill, does not affect national security, positively or negatively. It just does not affect it. What it does affect is that when the intelligence services have to report to an inquiry or the Intelligence and Security Committee or whatever, they have to tell the truth, whether in open or closed session. That is the key element of it. We think that has been missed. The Government invited me to have a meeting with the intelligence services last night, and I did. I know that this Committee has been briefed as well. I think it was quite clear that the intelligence services have missed that point. We have put forward a very simple amendment that we think takes complete account of those concerns about national security. We ask you to look at that and to adopt that amendment.

• 27 Nov 2025 · Public Office (Accountability) Bill (First sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q Hello; I am the shadow Justice Minister. Professor Lewis, are there any significant differences, or even minor differences, between the work that the Law Commission did and its recommendations, and the Bill as drafted? Professor Lewis: Yes, there are some differences, but the Bill substantially implements the Law Commission’s recommendations on misconduct in public office. All of the core structural reforms have been adopted, in clauses 12 and 13. There are a few material differences in detail; I will perhaps run through them as a list, without expanding on them, and then if there are any you wish to pick up, you can. There are some objective fault elements in both offences where the commission had recommended subjective awareness: in the seriously improper acts offence, the commission recommended that the defendant had to realise that a reasonable person would regard the act as seriously improper, whereas the Bill requires that the defendant knows or ought to know that. There is a similar shift in the breach of duty offence. There is some divergence in relation to the defence to what we recommended as the corruption offence—the seriously improper acts offence. We recommended a public interest defence; the Bill has a reasonable excuse defence. We recommended that the persuasive or legal burden be on the defendant, whereas in the Bill it is only an evidential burden to raise the defence that is on the defendant. There is an extra seriousness threshold in the breach of duty offence, which we explicitly rejected; we did not think it was needed. That is the requirement that “the act…falls far below what could reasonably be expected”. It is a sort of gross negligence threshold. I think the other points are fairly minor. One is about the repeal of section 26 of the Criminal Justice and Courts Act 2015, and the other is some differences in relation to what counts as holding public office. Having said that, our recommendations on that were that the Government consider certain kinds of public office for inclusion in the list, and the Government have considered all of those kinds of public office. We had anticipated that further work would be needed to refine the list, and that work has been done.

• 27 Nov 2025 · Public Office (Accountability) Bill (First sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q I am the shadow Justice Minister. Thank you for the written briefings, particularly the one done with INQUEST and Justice North, which is very detailed. As has been alluded to, we cannot go through it all, but could you pick out perhaps the two or three points where it is most important to make further amendments, based on what you just said? Pete Weatherby: Primarily, our concerns are around command responsibility and the extent to which the Bill covers, or does not cover, the intelligence services, and we have concerns about the clause 11 offence going too far in its requirements.

• 25 Nov 2025 · Access to GPs · Hansard source

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  There are a number of exciting opportunities for extended GP premises in my constituency—in places like Martins Oak in Battle, Little Common and Old Town, and Oldwood in Robertsbridge. One major challenge is the rates that the NHS district valuer is willing to offer for construction sites; they have just not kept up with the inflation we have seen across all sectors of construction. I did have a meeting with the Minister for Care and it was helpful to start those discussions, but we have not made the progress that we need to. Can we have a further meeting, and will the Secretary of State outline what he will do to ensure that district valuers are offering rates that can allow construction to go ahead?

• 20 Nov 2025 · Migration: Settlement Pathway · Hansard source

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  I am not sure it helps the Home Secretary’s cause for me to say that I have a great deal of respect for her and that I thought her interventions this week were very important, particularly those pointed towards members of her party on the left who will make the cause they choose to champion more difficult if the system as a whole is not brought under control. The people who support asylum and refugee processes and want them to be there in future need the system to be brought under control. My sincere question relates to what I would describe as tinkering around the edges of the human rights laws. The Home Secretary must know that whatever she does to clarify the fringes of the rulings the ECHR has made over the years, they have created a case law that forces our judges to rule in favour of spurious claims. She cannot change that; those rulings are those rulings. Unless we are willing at the very least to have a derogation from some elements of the Court’s decisions, how does she think we can override those well-established rulings which give enormous amounts of rights to people when they are making their asylum claims?

• 19 Nov 2025 · Property (Digital Assets etc) Bill [Lords] · Hansard source

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  I rise simply to put on the record my thanks, particularly to the Bill Committee and to the Law Commission for its diligence. Yet again we see the great benefit that our state machinery and apparatus as whole derive from having the Law Commission. I have nothing further to add.