Justin Madders MP: speeches 2025

Speeches

• 7 Jan 2025 · Employment Rights Bill (Fifteenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  Just that I welcome the support from the shadow Minister, albeit for the wording rather than the spirit of the amendment. Amendment 72 agreed to. Amendment made: 73, in clause 46, page 51, leave out lines 1 and 2 and insert— “(3) A ‘qualifying trade union’ is a trade union that has a certificate of independence.” —(Justin Madders.) See the explanatory statement to amendment 72.

• 7 Jan 2025 · Employment Rights Bill (Fifteenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I acknowledge the points made by the shadow Minister, but of course, as he has already anticipated, my response is that all of that will be determined in secondary legislation following a consultation. That is the right approach. The sort of detailed questions he is rightly posing are best dealt with in secondary legislation and probably in codes of practice as well. That is the kind of detail that would not normally find its way into a Bill. Of course, for me to prejudge any consultation on the circumstances in which it may or may not be appropriate for unions to gain access would of course, be to predetermine the outcome of the consultation.

• 7 Jan 2025 · Employment Rights Bill (Fifteenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I beg to move amendment 74, in clause 46, page 51, line 4, at end insert— “(4A) ‘Workplace’ does not include any part of a workplace used as a dwelling.”. This amendment would ensure that the right of access does not include access to dwellings. This important amendment adds some clarity about the right of access to a workplace, providing an exemption so that the right of physical access does not apply to private dwellings such as the private homes of workers who are working either fully from their home or in a hybrid manner between their workplace and their home. Most exemptions will be provided for and set out in detail in secondary legislation, but we think it is important to set out this principle in the Bill. We will provide in secondary legislation and guidance more detail on how complex physical access cases, such as care homes, where premises are a mix of residential and a workplace, will be negotiated. To protect the privacy of people living in the premises, that could, for example, set out the terms that it is reasonable for the trade union to comply with when exercising access, for example limiting access to parts of the premises that are used by workers only, and specifying that unions should take a specific route to the particular room where access activities are due to take place. That sort of detail will be set out in secondary legislation following consultation.

• 7 Jan 2025 · Employment Rights Bill (Fifteenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I feel that we are going to have a few of these conversations again this year. Heaven forbid the previous Government ever amended anything in Committee! We knew the Bill was issued at a challenging pace and that it was large, so there were always going to be elements that needed clarification at this stage. It is right to do that now before it becomes law and well in advance of any practical application. Like amendment 72, this amendment is an example of us responding to concerns raised when the Bill was published. It is probably fair to say that no one actually envisaged trade unions marching into people’s homes, so it was not something we thought it necessary to spell out in the Bill, but that concern has been raised in feedback, and we are able to provide clarification and reassurance. I therefore commend the amendment to the Committee. Amendment 74 agreed to. Amendments made: 75, in clause 46, page 51, line 18, leave out “listed” and insert “qualifying”. See the explanatory statement to amendment 72. Amendment 76, in clause 46, page 52, line 13, leave out “listed” and insert “qualifying”. See the explanatory statement to amendment 72. Amendment 77, in clause 46, page 52, line 26, leave out “listed” and insert “qualifying”. See the explanatory statement to amendment 72. Amendment 78, in clause 46, page 53, line 36, leave out “listed” and insert “qualifying”. See the explanatory statement to amendment 72. Amendment 79, in clause 46, page 53, line 40, leave out “listed” and insert “qualifying”. —(Justin Madders.) See the explanatory statement to amendment 72.

• 7 Jan 2025 · Employment Rights Bill (Fifteenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I am not sure that the shadow Minister wants me to check everything again, because it might lead to further amendments and we may have this debate repeatedly. I would gently push back on the suggestion that this is a “howling error”, as he described it. Of course, the Employment Appeal Tribunal already has the jurisdiction of the CAC to hear appeals. It is probably more a case of making sure it is clear that that applies to this particular provision rather than its being an oversight in the first place. Amendment 82 agreed to. Question proposed, That the clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill.

• 7 Jan 2025 · Employment Rights Bill (Fifteenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  Proposed new section 70ZF(4)(a) of the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992 allows the Secretary of State to prescribe circumstances in which it would be reasonable for the Central Arbitration Committee to determine that a trade union is not to have access to a workplace. Amendment 80 is a minor technical amendment to clarify that, if circumstances are specified under proposed new section 70ZF(4)(a) of the Act, the effect of specifying those circumstances is that it is reasonable to make a determination that officials of a union are not to have access, but it does not require the CAC to make such a determination. Amendment 81 allows the Secretary of State to prescribe in secondary legislation the matters to which the CAC must have regard when determining whether access is to be granted to a trade union. As an example, that would usefully allow the Secretary of State to prescribe that the CAC must, when making determinations about access, have regard to the presence of a trade union with existing access to the workplace to which another union is seeking access. In that scenario, the amendment provides reassurances that an access request will not be rejected by default if there is an existing arrangement with another trade union. The Government have consulted on the exact details of what the CAC is required to consider when making determinations about access, and secondary legislation will follow Royal Assent to the Bill. With that in mind, I commend the amendments to the Committee.

• 7 Jan 2025 · Employment Rights Bill (Fifteenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  The clause makes provision for trade unions and employers to negotiate access agreements, under which employers will be required to permit trade union officials to enter workplaces for various purposes, such as recruitment, organising, and meeting and providing support to existing members. This is particularly significant for unrecognised unions. Access to a workplace can provide an opportunity to recruit and organise with the aim of gaining formal recognition. The Bill currently provides that any listed trade unions can apply for access to a workplace. Under the current definition, it is possible that employers could use staff associations and non-independent bodies to frustrate independent trade unions’ access to the workplace. Therefore, proposed amendments 72, 73 and 75 to 79 require trade unions to have a certificate of independence issued by the Certification Officer to qualify for access. The amendments will ensure that clause 46 is used as intended. The clause will ensure that independent unions can initiate and agree access agreements with an employer, while not affecting the existing ability of non-independent bodies to negotiate voluntary access agreements. Amendment 73 inserts the defined term “qualifying trade union” and defines it as a union that has a certificate of independence issued by the Certification Officer. That will apply to proposed new chapter 5ZA of the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992 only, and amendments 72 and 75 to 79 update other provisions that refer to “listed” trade unions accordingly.

• 7 Jan 2025 · Employment Rights Bill (Fifteenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I beg to move amendment 82, in clause 46, page 57, line 37, at end insert— “(c) dismiss the appeal.” This amendment would clarify that the Employment Appeal Tribunal may dismiss an appeal under new section 70ZK(2) of the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992. The amendment is straightforward, providing clarity that an Employment Appeal Tribunal can dismiss an appeal under the new section 70ZK(2) of the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992. It is a fairly straightforward and self-explanatory amendment.

• 7 Jan 2025 · Employment Rights Bill (Fifteenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  We have had a good debate on the amendment. It is fair to say there is a deep divide in our positions. I will address the amendment and the clause stand part debate. Amendment 126 would make two changes to clause 48. First, it seeks to retain the requirement on trade unions to provide their members with an annual notice of their right to opt out of contributions to the political fund. Secondly, it seeks to require trade union members to opt in to contributions to the political fund annually. As we have heard, that would place substantial and unnecessary bureaucratic requirements both on trade unions and on their members. As my hon. Friend the Member for Worsley and Eccles said, this is one of those rare occasions when the Conservative party seems to be in favour of more red tape, which is clearly something that we want to see reduced. I will start with the change that would retain the requirement for trade unions to send an annual notice to members reminding them that they can opt out of contributing to a political fund. The amendment targets the wrong section. It would amend section 86 of the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992, which relates to ensuring that employers do not deduct contributions through check-off from the member where the union member has opted out of the political fund or where the opt-out notice has been given but is not yet in force. However, I will respond in terms of the spirit of the amendment tabled by the shadow Minister. The Government have been clear in our intention to repeal the Trade Union Act 2016, which was a clear manifesto commitment. We have a mandate to deliver on that. The amendment seeks to frustrate that clear intention by retaining the substantive effect of section 84A of the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992, as amended by the Trade Union Act 2016. We should be clear that members are, of course, free to opt out of contributing to a political fund whenever they wish. Clause 48, which I will come to, sets out how that is possible. Currently, alongside the requirement to ballot members on the maintenance of a political fund every 10 years, trade unions must also remind their members of their right to opt out of a political fund. The Government are proposing to remove the ballot requirements. We have consulted on whether to retain a requirement for trade union members to be reminded on a 10-year basis that they can opt out of the political fund.

• 7 Jan 2025 · Employment Rights Bill (Fifteenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  The shadow Minister is of course right—we do need to get this right and engage with businesses and trade unions about the detail. That is what we intend to do. Question put and agreed to. Clause 46, as amended, accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clause 47 Conditions for trade union recognition Question proposed , That the clause stand part of the Bill.