Ian Murray MP: speeches

Speeches

• 25 Apr 2025 · Devolution (Immigration) (Scotland) Bill · Hansard source

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  And the consequence is that we would require checks in both directions. As the Minister for Independence—did my hon. Friend know that the Scottish Government had a Minister for Independence?—clearly said, as we have heard, that a hard border would be required in particular cases. Scottish Ministers, incidentally, have just awarded themselves a £20,000 pay rise—certainly not on the basis of their performance. It is important to acknowledge the complexities of immigration as a cross-cutting policy area. SNP Members do not want to talk about it as a cross-cutting policy area, because many of the policy areas around immigration are devolved to the Scottish Government. This is not simply about numbers. It covers issues of social cohesion, as we heard this morning, economic stability and public services. Ensuring we have a fair and properly managed immigration system that takes account of those complexities is a priority for this Government. We have made clear that the immigration system we inherited is not working. Indeed, the previous Government, which the shadow Secretary of State served in, said that the immigration system in the UK was broken. Under the previous Government, between 2019 and 2024, net migration almost quadrupled, heavily driven by a big increase in overseas recruitment. I have the net migration figures here, and they have been a key part of the debate. In 2023, the net migration figure for the United Kingdom was 906,000. If there was a proportionate share of that net migration going to Scotland, then the immigration to Scotland would be somewhere in the region of 80,000 to 85,000. Indeed, it was below 60,000, so a huge number of net migrants who are coming to the UK are not going to Scotland. The big question has to be why. We had a huge tirade from the hon. Member for Arbroath and Broughty Ferry about Brexit and its consequences, but those lower figures are still higher than before the UK left the European Union. The big question has to be asked: why are people not going to Scotland to work and live?

• 25 Apr 2025 · Devolution (Immigration) (Scotland) Bill · Hansard source

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  I am tempted to say that Scotland is not a region but a country, but I will not go down that rather juvenile route. The clear point is that the No. 1 priority and mission of this new UK Labour Government is economic growth, because we require it in our communities. If the hon. Gentleman is saying that everything is rosy in Scotland, he should go to his communities and see whether he thinks that is indeed the case. There are lots of wonderful opportunities in Scotland in terms of economic growth, and we should be exploiting those to create the jobs and careers of the future. That is a key part of what we should be talking about. It is clear that levels of immigration need to be reduced. The Prime Minister has also been clear that we will not be introducing an arbitrary cap. This issue will not be resolved by gimmicks, unlike what we see from Opposition parties. It is simply not enough to cap numbers. Without a joined-up approach, our economy will be left without the skills it needs to grow. By creating a fair and properly managed system, we will reduce net migration back down to sustainable levels. We will achieve that through the hard work of tackling the root causes of reliance on overseas recruitment, not through gimmicks such as arbitrary targets. We want to ensure that businesses are helped to hire domestic workers first. We will ensure that different parts of Government draw up skills and workforce improvement plans in high migration sectors. When the hon. Member for Arbroath and Broughty Ferry introduced his Bill, he challenged the Labour Government on what we were actually doing. Let me just read our manifesto to him, because actually it reflects much of what he was asking for, but that is not what his Bill wants to try to achieve. It states: “We will strengthen the Migration Advisory Committee, and establish a framework for joint working with skills bodies across the UK, the Industrial Strategy Council and the Department for Work and Pensions. The needs of our economy are different across the regions and nations, and different sectors have different needs. Given skills policy and employment support are devolved we will work with the Scottish Government when designing workforce plans for different sectors. This will ensure our migration and skills policies work for every part of the UK.” It also states: “The next UK Labour Government will also ensure that UK-wide bodies are more representative of our nations and regions, this includes representation for Scotland on the Industrial Strategy Council, and Scottish skills bodies working jointly with the Migration Advisory Committee.” Before the hon. Member for Arbroath and Broughty Ferry pops up and says, “Well yes, but who is on the Migration Advisory Committee?”, I refer him to Professor Sergi Pardos-Prado, professor of comparative politics at the University of Glasgow. He was recruited to the Migration Advisory Committee because of his knowledge on migration-related issues in devolved areas. All of the accusations laid by the hon. Member for Arbroath and Broughty Ferry through his 51-minute speech have been completely dispelled by the manifesto and the actions of this Government already.

• 25 Apr 2025 · Devolution (Immigration) (Scotland) Bill · Hansard source

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  May I begin by thanking all Members for their contributions, and the hon. Member for Arbroath and Broughty Ferry (Stephen Gethins) for bringing the Bill before us today? I am slightly confused, after his 42-minute contribution, about what he is actually promoting. He seems to be suggesting that the Bill should pass and go into Committee, and then he will invent another Bill to do different things. The Bill before us, which is what we should be debating, is a short Bill that would essentially remove immigration from schedule 5 to the Scotland Act 1998 and devolve it wholly to the Scottish Parliament. As I have said before, if nothing is in schedule 5—

• 25 Apr 2025 · Devolution (Immigration) (Scotland) Bill · Hansard source

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  My hon. Friend says it all, and I could not agree more. The Bill would add extra complexity to an already extremely complex system. Adding devolved powers would increase that level of complexity even further. For example, the previous Fresh Talent: Working in Scotland scheme, which we have talked about, allowed international students graduating from Scottish universities two years in which they could work without needing a sponsoring employer. The route saw many participants relocate to other parts of the UK as soon as they could. The current graduate visa route offers all the same benefits of the old Fresh Talent route, but applies to graduates of all UK universities, not just those in Scotland.

• 25 Apr 2025 · Devolution (Immigration) (Scotland) Bill · Hansard source

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  My hon. Friend hits the practicalities on the head. There is no way, at this moment in time, of monitoring cross-border, because there is not a border to monitor. We have the free flow of movement of people from north to south and from England to Scotland and Wales and so on. The Government do not support creating internal borders of any kind. The open land border within the UK renders tighter controls ineffective in Scotland. More permissive controls would weaken the UK’s position as a whole. Consistent rules and legislation are essential to prevent a two-tier system within the United Kingdom and to avoid geographical changes becoming a pull or push factor for those who wish to abuse the system. The current system allows flexibility and freedom for migrant workers to apply for alternative employment anywhere in the UK. Furthermore, visa holders may not want to stay in particular areas for much the same reason as UK nationals, and we cannot compel them to stay indefinitely in any case.

• 25 Apr 2025 · Devolution (Immigration) (Scotland) Bill · Hansard source

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  We are concerned about the higher education system in Scotland at the moment, and this Government will do everything it can to support it. Let us work through that particular point, because it is important. The main driver for Scottish universities being in the place they are is the funding model they have been forced into having. It caps Scottish students going to university. That means the universities are completely and utterly underfunded, so their business model has had to reach into international waters to bring in much greater numbers of international students to balance the books. That model is completely broken if those international students decrease in number for a whole host of economic and other reasons. We end up in a situation whereby the whole financial issue is completely and utterly broken. To show the sums of money we are talking about, Edinburgh University is not in deficit—and it is important to say that—but it will be if it does not take action, and the deficit will be £140 million. That is a direct result of the Scottish Government’s funding of higher education. Beyond that, the Migration Advisory Committee has also noted that the scale of migration needed to try to address depopulation would be significant, but that Scotland’s labour market needs are broadly similar to those elsewhere in the UK. The committee has highlighted in its work notable similarities and differences within nations and regions of the UK, and its ambition is to produce an analysis that is localised, but as rigorous as possible. We look forward to seeing that. However, the committee’s geographic focus has at times been limited by the reliability or availability of regional data. It will work with stakeholders to improve the geographical migration data they use, with a view to enabling greater improvement in localised insights. Beyond this Bill, the proposals of the party of the hon. Member for Arbroath and Broughty Ferry in recent years include an expanded skilled worker visa for Scotland, a bespoke Scottish visa, a Scottish graduate visa and a remote rural partnership scheme. In relation to a Scottish rural visa pilot, the Migration Advisory Committee has noted that both Australia and Canada have place-based immigration programmes, but it is suggested that these schemes may not be a long-term solution to rural depopulation. We heard from the former Chair of the Scottish Affairs Committee, the hon. Member for Perth and Kinross-shire, that depopulation in Scotland has been a century long and therefore any scheme will not be a long-term solution to that kind of rural depopulation.

• 25 Apr 2025 · Devolution (Immigration) (Scotland) Bill · Hansard source

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  Let us do a little mathematics. Some 2.3% of the population in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency are unemployed, and nearly one in six young people across Scotland are not in education, employment or training. That is nearly 100,000 young people alone. The question must be: why are those young people not seeking out those jobs in his constituency and the constituency of the hon. Member for Moray West, Nairn and Strathspey (Graham Leadbitter)? The hon. Gentleman wants to say to those young people, “You stay not in employment, education or training, and we will pull a separate immigration lever to get people to work in poorly paid industries, rather than boosting pay, careers, progression and the places that people want to live and work in.” Scotland has a proud industrial past—indeed, we all know that from history—and it can have a bright industrial future that delivers jobs and wealth for families for generations to come. For too long, Scottish workers have missed out on work, and I worry that a new generation will miss out on the skills required to take up the new opportunities. While the Scotland Office will seek to work in co-operation with the Scottish Government, I am afraid that this debate is just another example of the SNP demanding more powers to distract from its own failures rather than take responsibility for them. UK visas are tied to locations already—an international student at the University of Edinburgh is not commuting from Somerset. The question is then: at a time when the previous Government presided over record levels of immigration, why is Scotland not a more attractive place for people coming to the UK to work or study? I suggest that it is down to 20 years of SNP failure on policy delivery.

• 25 Apr 2025 · Devolution (Immigration) (Scotland) Bill · Hansard source

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  I did not accuse the hon. Gentleman of being dishonest. Those are his words. Maybe he is reflecting on his own contribution. Let me take that intervention straight on and give the House the actual quote from the deputy leader of the Scottish Labour party, not what Members have determined that she may have said. I will come on to why what she said is really important and completely aligned with UK Government policy. The quote from the deputy leader of the Scottish Labour party was: “there would be dialogue and discussion but we need to recognise that growing home-grown talent is really important. At the moment there are no plans for” A Scottish visa, “but I think if you have governments taking common-sense approaches” to skills shortages, as “an incoming Labour Government would do,” that helps resolve the problem. That is what she said, and what we are working on. Let me conclude my remarks with some clarity on the Scotland Act 1998. As I said, if something is in the Scotland Act and is mentioned in schedule 5, it is reserved. If it is not, it is deemed to be devolved. The Bill would devolve immigration to the Scottish Government and Scottish Parliament. I make that point strongly at the start because it leads into all the other arguments we have heard from hon. Members from across the House about what the requirement would be at Berwick, on the border between Scotland and England.

• 25 Apr 2025 · Devolution (Immigration) (Scotland) Bill · Hansard source

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  Indeed, we are; perhaps the hon. Member for Perth and Kinross-shire (Pete Wishart) should try doing his bit a bit more. [ Interruption. ] There is no need to confess now, Pete. But my hon. Friend is right; the biggest consideration for many families is childcare. Government Ministers are highly paid, and my wife works as well, but getting access to proper childcare that is flexible enough to ensure people can stay in work is a real challenge. Again, that is something the Scottish Government do not want to talk about. We have talked about the economy, public services, housing and childcare. The First Minister made a growth speech a few weeks ago, and his only conclusion on growth in Scotland was that we need access to visas. There was nothing else. There was no ambition. There were no solutions to how we get planning sorted in Scotland. There was nothing about making sure we win the global race to green power. His one recommendation was getting something that has no control over, so that he does not have to take responsibility for the things he does have control over.

• 25 Apr 2025 · Devolution (Immigration) (Scotland) Bill · Hansard source

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  It astounds me that the leader of the Scottish National party in this place, the right hon. Member for Aberdeen South, has GB Energy headquartered in his own constituency but voted against it. SNP Members voted against the extra £4.9 billion in the Budget, and they stand against nuclear power. Those three examples show why Scotland needs to take a new direction at the election next year.

• 25 Apr 2025 · Devolution (Immigration) (Scotland) Bill · Hansard source

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  The flippancy with which SNP Members deal with these relevant and serious issues is there for all to see. I hope that a lot of our non-Scottish colleagues who are here today have seen how utterly deplorably they operate in this Chamber and how rude and patronising they are when we are dealing with serious issues for our constituents. Brand Scotland is there to do exactly that: to ensure that we get inward investment into Scotland, to sell Scotland to the world and to have a much more thriving economy for our communities.

• 25 Apr 2025 · Devolution (Immigration) (Scotland) Bill · Hansard source

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  Just for clarity for Members of this House who are not Scottish, free personal care was a Labour policy of the last Labour Administration in Scotland. Let me deal directly with that intervention, which was well-meaning. The reason why we are talking about health is that the issue concerns the birth rate. We have heard already about the lack of maternity services, and the lack of maternity and paternity support, both pre-birth and post-birth. They are a key part of whether people determine to have more children. People may have in the back of their mind the question of whether they want to go to Scotland and sit on a waiting list with one in seven of their fellow Scots, or want to live somewhere where the waiting lists are going down. Do they want to live in Scotland, where the Government have passed an Act committing to a 62-day waiting time, but have not met that target in 13 years? Do they want to be on an NHS waiting list that is 26% longer today than it was last year? Do they want to be in a place where in the first nine months of 2024, over 36,500 procedures were paid for by patients because they had to get their cataracts, hip and knee replacements done? They even had to pay for rounds of chemotherapy because their choice was pay or pain. That is the choice that this Scottish Government have given to patients. There is a two-tier NHS in Scotland: one for those who can pay, and one for those who have to wait in pain. Despite that abysmal backlog and Scots being forced to go private, almost 50,000 fewer operations are carried out a year than before the pandemic. Does the hon. Gentleman want to intervene and say whether I have answered his question about why health is relevant to the debate? Perhaps not. The bodies responsible for community health and social care—a sector with a fair proportion of international workers—face a funding gap in Scotland of £457 million. Councils that have been slashed to the bone are responsible for social care services. The outsourcing of social care services and the driving down of wages are the only options that councils have been left with because of the constant underfunding of social care by the Scottish Government. I make no apology for highlighting the SNP’s record in Scotland on the issues that it is responsible for. SNP Members never want to talk about the powers they have—just the powers that they do not have. But let me be slightly more positive and talk about our working together in a spirit of co-operation. The hon. Member for Arbroath and Broughty Ferry might want to reflect on this. I will share an example of Scotland’s two Governments working together on an immigration issue. Last August, 19 female Afghan medical students, barred by the Taliban in Afghanistan from completing their medical university studies, arrived in Scotland to train to become doctors. Previously, the women were confined to their homes and unable to contribute to their society through a medical career. Many feared for not just their careers but their lives. They felt that their lives were in danger, and they lived in fear of the Taliban. The UK Government’s Scotland Office proposed student visas as an alternative route to using the Afghan citizens resettlement scheme, and the Scottish Government confirmed that they would introduce legislation to amend student funding regulations to ensure that the women could attend Scottish medical schools and complete their studies. It was a tremendous effort of co-operation between the UK and Scottish Governments, brokered by the wonderful Linda Norgrove Foundation. Linda Norgrove was an aid worker from the Western Isles in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar. The foundation was set up by Linda Norgrove’s parents John and Lorna in memory of their daughter, who was kidnapped and died during a failed rescue attempt in Afghanistan in October 2010. The foundation aims to support women and children affected by war in Afghanistan. It has raised more than £3 million since it was established in 2010, which has been spent on a wide range of projects, from literacy programmes to calligraphy classes. It had been providing scholarships for women to study medicine, dentistry, the law and business at university. That came to an end when the Taliban banned women from attending university. On behalf of the UK Government, and I am sure the Scottish Government, I commend the foundation for its ongoing extraordinary work on this aspect of immigration. I highlight it not to make a political point, but because it shows that when we have an issue that needs to be resolved and the Scottish and UK Governments can work together, we can resolve these kinds of issues directly. Those Afghan women, when they complete their medical studies in Scotland, can contribute so much to the country and to their future. This Government look forward to publishing the immigration White Paper. We will reduce immigration and work to provide Scotland with the economic growth, jobs and opportunities that it deserves and needs. We will continue to work with the Scottish Government on delivering for Scotland—we have reset that relationship—but we will also respect the devolution settlement. However, the UK Government do not believe that this Bill, devolving further powers on immigration, is the solution to Scotland’s depopulation or skills shortage. We need both Governments working together in this vital area, and if the Scottish Government are not willing to do that, I suggest that they stand aside next year and allow Labour to do it for them.

• 25 Apr 2025 · Devolution (Immigration) (Scotland) Bill · Hansard source

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  The hon. Gentleman should be pleased, because there are only two of them to go down any of the Lobbies; 40% of the Scottish Conservatives are here, and that makes two of them—I still think it is too many, but we will work on that at the next election. As I have said, it is simply not good enough to cap numbers without that joined-up approach. We recognise the compounding pressures that the asylum and resettlement system is placing on local authorities and devolved Governments. That is something we have not really spoken about today, but we are committed to addressing that and delivering long-term solutions, not the sticking plaster politics that we hear from the parties opposite. We are looking at these issues carefully and will develop a new cross-Government strategy, working with stakeholders across the country and the devolved Governments, who will be vital partners in this work. We want to ensure that any policies alongside the broader approach to asylum and resettlement work in lockstep with the Government’s objectives to end homelessness and—I am sorry to mention a devolved issue—build 1.5 million new homes over the course of this Parliament in England. That is not happening in Scotland. It is important to us to work together to ensure positive integration outcomes and improve access for all.

• 23 Apr 2025 · North Sea Oil and Gas Licences: Economic Growth · Hansard source

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  I commend my hon. Friend on the work she is doing, particularly in the port of Leith, to ensure that we can have the transition and have it well. She highlights the important thing about this issue and debate: the energy mix requires us to have renewable power and clean energy by 2030, but it also requires us to have nuclear power and oil and gas. The energy mix means that we do it all; it is not either/or.

• 23 Apr 2025 · North Sea Oil and Gas Licences: Economic Growth · Hansard source

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  I am proud of the enormous contribution North sea workers have made to our country. Oil and gas will be an important part of our energy mix for decades to come. We have a workforce who lead the world, and we are determined to secure their long-term future in the energy industry, including oil and gas. The UK Government will soon respond to our recent consultation on supporting the energy transition in the North sea, and I am in the north-east tomorrow, turning on a wind farm and also meeting leaders in the oil and gas sector.

• 23 Apr 2025 · North Sea Oil and Gas Licences: Economic Growth · Hansard source

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  The Government’s sole purpose initially, in their first few months in office, was to clear up the mess that the hon. Gentleman’s party left in this country, including the £22 billion black hole. We will get on with delivering our missions, including clean power by 2030. That is what we are focused on, because that is what is good for jobs, good for bills and good for the environment.

• 23 Apr 2025 · North Sea Oil and Gas Licences: Economic Growth · Hansard source

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  On 7 April, the UK Government announced that eight Scottish projects had been shortlisted for the next stage of the hydrogen allocation round 2 process. My ministerial colleagues and I look forward to working with industry to deliver our vision for a thriving low-carbon, hydrogen economy in the UK. I commend my hon. Friend on the work he has done in pushing forward the project in his constituency.

• 23 Apr 2025 · North Sea Oil and Gas Licences: Economic Growth · Hansard source

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  On the oil and gas sector in 2050, I have already mentioned at the Dispatch Box, as has the Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero, that oil and gas will be with us for decades to come, including to 2050.

• 23 Apr 2025 · North Sea Oil and Gas Licences: Economic Growth · Hansard source

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  The Energy Secretary and his Department are involved in a consultation on the just transition at the moment, but I go back to my earlier answers: if we are to get clean power by 2030 and to have an energy mix in this country, we require oil and gas, we require renewables and we require nuclear. It is a simple process.

• 23 Apr 2025 · North Sea Oil and Gas Licences: Economic Growth · Hansard source

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  The national mission of this Labour Government is to get to clean power by 2030, but that means three things: renewable power, nuclear power, and oil and gas. As I have said already, oil and gas will be with us in the Scottish and UK context for decades to come.

• 23 Apr 2025 · Exports: Impact of US Tariffs · Hansard source

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  I could not agree more with my hon. Friend. The pragmatic approach of the Prime Minister and this Government to this issue has been welcomed by industry and businesses right across the United Kingdom. That is in the national interests of the UK. We work very hard together to make sure that the impacts of US tariffs on the UK are not as bad as we thought they might be.

• 23 Apr 2025 · Exports: Impact of US Tariffs · Hansard source

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  As I have said at the Dispatch Box before, it is vital that we do all we can to strengthen our diplomatic, cultural and business ties with the United States. I was in Washington and New York for Tartan Week in the week when tariffs were imposed on the rest of the world, and I made the case for Scotch whisky and Scottish businesses in particular. We are engaging with Scottish exporters and industry representatives to assess the potential impact of US tariffs, and remain in contact with US counterparts. Our pragmatic and calm approach has been overwhelmingly welcomed by businesses and industry. We will not address this important issue in a knee-jerk way to get retweets, unlike some others in this House.

• 23 Apr 2025 · Exports: Impact of US Tariffs · Hansard source

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  We know that this will be a concerning time for businesses in Scotland. In 2024, 12.3% of goods exported from Scotland were exported to the United States. That is why the UK Government are focused on negotiating an economic deal with the US. As the Business and Trade Secretary made clear in his statement to the House on 3 April, the Government are resolute in our support for industries throughout the United Kingdom, and Ministers and officials will continue to engage with businesses to understand the impact that these tariffs may have.

• 23 Apr 2025 · Higher Education · Hansard source

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  Before you do so, Mr Speaker, I had better answer his question. [ Laughter. ] Too excited about St George’s day so I am, Mr Speaker. We should all be proud of Scotland’s universities, the contribution they make to Scotland’s public life and their reputation as the best in the world, but 18 years of the Scottish National party have left some of those proud institutions in dire straits. Job cuts and course closures are the inevitable product of the SNP’s decision to deliver a 22% real terms cut to Scottish student funding since 2013. Scotland’s universities, their staff and their students all need a Scottish Government with a proper plan to turn this crisis around; they need a new direction with Scottish Labour.

• 23 Apr 2025 · Higher Education · Hansard source

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  May I give the hon. Gentleman and all his SNP colleagues our deepest condolences on the loss of Christina McKelvie? I think this is the first time that we have had Scottish questions since then. I say again that the hon. Gentleman and his SNP colleagues voted against the Budget, which delivered an extra £4.9 billion for public services in Scotland. Some of that should have gone to frontline services, including to ensuring that our higher education sector was funded properly in the Scottish context. The SNP is very good at blaming everybody else for powers that do not belong to it, but what it should actually do is get a mirror. In the last seven days, the only increase it has made in using the budget given to it is £20,000 on the salaries of Scottish Government Ministers, who have all singularly failed.