Gregory Stafford MP: speeches

Speeches

• 21 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  My hon. Friend makes a good point, which she has already made during her interventions on this clause. It is vital to understand what is in the chemical make-up of the different flavours when the Minister is making those decisions. That brings me neatly on to my next point, which is about the flavours themselves. I know that the Minister and the shadow Minister have raised unicorn milk, tutti-frutti and bubble gum flavours and all those kinds of things. I suggest to the Minister that it is less the flavour itself that appeals to children—as my hon. Friend the shadow Minister said, I do not know what unicorn milk tastes like, and I doubt any child does either—but that the phraseology “unicorn milk” sounds exciting and appealing to a child, whereas orange or banana may be less exciting. When the Minister looks at this issue, I suggest that he looks not necessarily to ban a flavour, but to ban the naming and descriptions of those flavours, which are clearly appealing to children. If someone is looking to stop smoking and is using a vape to do so, it is not unreasonable that they should know whether what they are buying is orange, blackberry or strawberry-flavoured, whereas the terminology being used, which we have discussed in this debate already, appeals to children. I will bring my remarks to a close. I obviously agree with the Government’s intention to target specific flavours that appeal to young people to preserve harm reduction, but we need to monitor and assess the impact of that regulation over time. When the Minister winds up the debate on the clause, will he give some indication of how that analysis and the impact assessment of the bans on specific flavours has impacted on smoking cessation, hopefully stopping children being dragged into vaping?

• 21 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  We are debating a number of clauses and the amendments to them. I will first touch on amendments 6 to 9 in the name of the hon. Member for Dartford. I completely understand where he is coming from in trying to use data collected by companies producing such products and by retail outlets. It could have a significant health benefit. The hon. Member for Worthing West is a public health consultant and will, therefore, sympathise with the ambitions in the amendments. Where there is a problem, however, is in the sharing of such data. Clearly, to make that effective from a public health point of view, the information needs to be shared with the Department of Health and Social Care and with relevant public health authorities at a local level, whether that be combined authority mayors—or whatever comes in the Government’s reorganisation— or local authorities. My concern is that the data will be publicly available to everyone, including competitors in that market. That is an extremely dangerous precedent to set. We would not do something similar with alcohol, although we must agree that alcohol also harms, or with fatty foods or sweets. I am sure the Minister will tell me later, and I completely agree with him, that tobacco and vape products are not in the same scale as fatty foods and alcohol, but I still think that there is an anti-competitive nature to some of the measures in the Bill, especially in the amendments, in particular when it comes to different sizes of companies. My hon. Friend the shadow Minister mentioned the big players in this market. Let us remember that we are not banning vapes—we are just banning them for those under the age of 18, and rightly so—but by using this data, the big competitors in the market could squeeze out smaller retailers and smaller companies that produce vapes. Perhaps that was the hon. Member for Dartford’s intention, but giving succour to the big beasts in this game is probably not the way we want to go. I am not sure whether he will press his amendments to a vote, but, if the Minister and the Government accept the proposals, in this form or another, we should look at a way of ensuring that we can use this data for public health benefit without the unintended consequences that might come about from sharing it with competitors. Clauses 96 to 98, as drafted, all include a lot of positives. Clause 96 empowers the Secretary of State to require producers and importers of tobacco and vaping products to provide information about their product sales and potential health risks. Obviously, transparency is critical to ensure consumer protection, and to inform our policy making and effective regulation of the sale and manufacture of such products. A study by the World Health Organisation found that countries with strict tobacco information disclosure laws saw a 20% decrease in tobacco-related illnesses over a decade. That very much sits with my point about using data to drive policy. Mandating the detailed reporting that is mentioned in the clause will ensure that consumers have access to crucial data about product contents and the health implications.

• 21 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  My hon. Friend makes a key point, and she has been making it throughout our discussions, as have others. Clearly, we want to move as rapidly as possible to ensure that as few children as possible are addicted to cigarettes or ever pick one up. I completely agree that we should move as fast as possible, but we need to do it in a sensible way to ensure that manufacturers can implement what we want them to implement, and that we do not end up in a situation where they are caught out by that.

• 21 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  It is not currently clear to me what this clause means by a “product”. Does the shadow Minister feel that it is a specific product, potentially with a brand name, or a product that fits within a set of standards or regulations? For example, is this regulating precisely “Bob Smith’s vape”, and somebody else’s vape? Or do the regulations provide that a vape with a certain length, with a certain number of milligrams of nicotine in it, with a certain dispensing unit, will be compliant and therefore anybody who produces a vape that fits within those specifications will be compliant? Or is it that every single producer of every single vape and product will have to register with the relevant authorities?

• 21 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  Yes, absolutely. I think the shadow Minister is completely right. There is that point, in terms of potential fear—if that is the right word—for this person if they are not in a senior position. Indeed, some of the less scrupulous companies may seek to intimidate said compliance officer. Also, to be frank, a lack of expertise in this area could lead to ineffective compliance oversight. While that is something undesirable in and of itself, it can also potentially have negative impacts on the consumer. Finally, could the Minister say a bit about the potential legal-liability issues of this person? Nominating a single individual raises questions about personal legal liability. Will this individual be legally responsible for compliance —or non-compliance—or will that be the chief executive or someone else, or will there be corporate responsibility or liability for breaches of the standards? I really think that provisions should be in place to ensure that the company—the manufacturer, the producer—bears the ultimate responsibility, rather than this named individual. The clause needs a clear set of qualifications and criteria regarding the experience of said responsible person. We should make sure that the accountability is structured to prevent scapegoating of individuals, as the shadow Minister has mentioned, and some kind of training programme is in place to support those compliance officers in their roles so that they can enact their duties responsibly. We should also ensure that, should something go wrong, it is the company that holds ultimate responsibility and liability in law rather than that individual.

• 21 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  That is a real risk of the amendments tabled by the hon. Member for Dartford. Essentially, we would be mandating the companies to show their competitors and potential new entrants to the market where the potentially fertile—in the sense of wanting to buy the product, to be clear—areas of customers are so that they would know to target them. It seems rather strange that we would want to do that. I am sure that that is not the hon. Member’s intention, but it is a potential conflict of interest.

• 20 Jan 2025 · House Building Targets · Hansard source

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  In Waverley and East Hampshire, housing targets from this Government are doubling. When my constituents move into those homes when they are built, the infrastructure and services are simply not there. By “services”, I do not mean a phalanx of civil servants to help them move house; I mean the schools, play areas, supermarkets and road networks. Will the Secretary of State come to my constituency of Farnham and Bordon to see where we need that infrastructure, so that she can understand the implications that her housing targets have for my community?

• 20 Jan 2025 · House Building Targets · Hansard source

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  1. What plans she has to support councils with house building targets.

• 16 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Seventh sitting) · Hansard source

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  That is very helpful.

• 16 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Seventh sitting) · Hansard source

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  For clarity, does that notice give notice of the amount of the penalty or just that a penalty will be imposed? Can the retailer appeal to the weights and measures authority about whether they will get a fine, or are they simply told the amount of the fine that they are likely to get? If my hon. Friend does not know, perhaps the Minister might.

• 16 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Seventh sitting) · Hansard source

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  My hon. Friend is making an interesting point. What does she think about the idea of having a single licence? If a shop—for example, a small convenience store—is selling alcohol, tobacco, where it is still permitted under the regulation, and vapes for those over 18, would a single regulatory process and licensing scheme be more efficient and more beneficial both to the customer and the retailer?

• 16 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Seventh sitting) · Hansard source

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  I am sure the Minister has much greater understanding of his own Government’s policy, but my understanding is that there will be some devolution of powers to parish and town councils. Will they potentially become the licensing authority when there is a downward devolution of power?

• 16 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Seventh sitting) · Hansard source

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  I am not clear what sort of exceptions we might be talking about in clauses 16 and 19 being made by Westminster Ministers or Welsh Government Ministers—and I assume there will be a corollary in the other devolved nations when we get to them.

• 16 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Seventh sitting) · Hansard source

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  I completely understand the practical need to repeal a piece of legislation that is no longer workable under the new Bill, but can my hon. Friend assure me that everything in the previous legislation that is appropriate has been transferred into the current legislation, so that nothing has fallen through the cracks? If she is not an expert in Welsh legislation, perhaps the Minister could help when he responds.

• 16 Jan 2025 · Listed Places of Worship Grant Scheme · Hansard source

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  The withdrawal of the listed places of worship scheme disproportionately affects rural churches. In my constituency of Farnham and Bordon, six listed churches saved nearly £43,000 in the past financial year through the scheme. Directors of St Andrew’s in Farnham and of St Bartholomew’s and St Christopher’s in Haslemere have raised concerns with me this week about the oversubscribed nature of other grant opportunities, such as the National Lottery Heritage Fund, which combines heritage restoration under the same scheme as, for example, coastal protection in the Humber estuary. This dilutes the vital church funds needed for their heritage. Can the hon. Lady inform me how churches can be supported to preserve heritage in my constituency if the VAT relief for repairs is not reinstated?

• 16 Jan 2025 · Listed Places of Worship Grant Scheme · Hansard source

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  12. What discussions the Commissioners have had on the continuation of VAT relief under the listed places of worship grant scheme.

• 16 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Eighth sitting) · Hansard source

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  My hon. Friend tempts me, but I am not going to respond. I suppose the only one that the Minister would consider removing would be the proof of age standards scheme card, if it were somehow changed or amended. Will he confirm that he is not looking to reduce the numbers?

• 16 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Eighth sitting) · Hansard source

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  The Minister is outlining clause 33. Under subsection (2), it is clear what the programme of enforcement action might involve, but what is not clear is what the consideration means in this case. In the local authority, is that decision made by a certain department, by the cabinet or, if a combined authority, by the mayor? What is due consideration under the Bill?

• 16 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Eighth sitting) · Hansard source

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  It does in the most general sense, but I am trying to get to the specifics of this, if the Minister does not mind. The clause is very clear. It says in subsection (1) of clause 33, “Each local weights and measures authority in England must, at least once a year, consider” and so on. Presumably, the Department has some idea of what that consideration would look like, and it is presumably the Department’s job to enforce that the local authority has made some consideration. It must have some benchmark as to what that consideration would be, otherwise how on earth will it enforce that part of the Act once passed?

• 16 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Eighth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I do not want to repeat too many points that other people have made. This a well-meaning, but ill thought-through amendment, as has been highlighted by the two hon. Members who spoke before me. I was a local government councillor for 17 years, and served on many health and wellbeing boards. I do not recall them ever having a separate fund, so this would be a new innovation. It would not necessarily be an innovation without good intention, but using central Government legislation to enforce a completely new set of financial arrangements on local authorities could have a wider impact than those who have tabled these amendments have anticipated. The Minister, either in his summary or on Report, might find a way of achieving what those hon. Members want via other means, because clearly we would all want the moneys from continued enforcement to be used for things as close to health and public health improvements as possible. Will the Minister address that in his response?

• 16 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Eighth sitting) · Hansard source

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  As all Liberal Democrats do whenever they stand up, the hon. Lady has just castigated the previous Government for everything they did. Did she not welcome the fact that the previous Conservative Administration brought in a Bill very similar to this one to improve the nation’s health? Is there nothing she can find to praise the previous Government for?

• 16 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Eighth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I have a simple question. Obviously, “amend” can mean either “increase” or “decrease”. The Bill lists the following ID cards: “(a) a passport, (b) a UK driving licence, (c) a driving licence issued by any of the Channel Islands or the Isle of Man, (d) a European Union photocard driving licence, or (e) an identity card issued by the Proof of Age Standards Scheme”. I assume that a passport, a UK driving licence, or a driving licence issued by the Channel Islands or the Isle of Man is unlikely to disappear. I have no idea, but I suspect that a European Union photocard driving licence is not going to disappear.

• 14 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Fifth sitting) · Hansard source

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  Is my hon. Friend saying that cigarette papers have a specific definition in law and therefore that the papers she talks about, which have chemicals to make them fire-resistant and so on, will be banned, or is she saying that the clause will ban anything that could be used as a cigarette paper within the law? If she does not know the answer, perhaps the Minister can pick that up when he responds.

• 14 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Fifth sitting) · Hansard source

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  The Minister said that this measure was to prevent people from buying cigarettes, cigarette papers or tobacco products for people under the age of 18. Obviously, when the Bill is first passed, that will be true, but with every progressive year, it will prevent buying for people aged 19, 20, 21 and 22. Why has the Minister not made a differential in law to ensure that, once the Bill is in place, there is a separate and more serious offence of buying tobacco products for someone under 18, however far in the future, and a separate offence of buying them for an adult who is ineligible to have them?

• 14 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Fifth sitting) · Hansard source

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  My hon. Friend is making, I think, an important point about whether Ministers, either in England or in the devolved Administrations, can put signs together in order to reduce the burden on a business of having multiple, potentially confusing signs. I understand the point about devolution, but most ordinary people will look for a single regulated sign for this. I wonder whether there is any discussion—even if the Minister cannot legally enforce it within the Bill—about working in tandem with the relevant Ministers in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, so that there can be a standardised sign, so that it is abundantly clear, whether someone is in England, Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland, that that is the sign, and that it is both clear to consumers and it is clear to businesses what they are supposed to be displaying.