Gregory Stafford MP: speeches

Speeches

• 21 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  Further to that point of order, Mr Dowd. Generally, such things are agreed between the Whips, but it was not agreed on our side. I put back a counterproposal that I thought was reasonable, and no response was received from the Government Whip.

• 21 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I have not seen any evidence of that, but I want to ensure through the regulations that the consumer understands, from a health benefit point of view, what is in the product that they are taking away with them. Unlike tobacco, vaping products are often promoted as a harm reduction tool for smokers who are trying to quit. Some argue that overly restrictive packaging rules could deter smokers from switching to less harmful alternatives, and I urge the Minister to assess how clause 90 affects vaping uptake among smokers seeking cessation tools. As we have heard previously, the tobacco and vaping industries have historically opposed packaging regulations, often challenging them through legal means. Many countries have seen lengthy lawsuits after implementing plain packaging laws. I urge the Minister to ensure that the UK is prepared to defend clause 90 against potential challenges and ensure that the regulations that might come through are legally sound and enforceable. Some critics also warn that overly stringent packaging laws could drive consumers towards the illicit markets, where unregulated products may pose greater health risks. Again, the Government must complement clause 90 with robust enforcement mechanisms to prevent black market proliferation.

• 21 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  We are talking about clause 92, which concerns the restriction on flavours in vapes. Children are born with tastebuds that are more aligned to sweet flavours, so clearly vapes that are flavoured with sweeter content will be more appealing to children than those that are not. I therefore support the Government’s intention to ensure that, as far as possible, children are not tempted to purchase or are not given vapes under age. Children copy what adults do. They think that it is “cool” to copy things that adults can do that children are technically not allowed to do under the law.

• 21 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I am considerably younger—no, that is not true at all, and I certainly do not look it. I do remember the sugar things that look like cigarettes, and although I have said previously that I have never smoked anything, or smoked tobacco, clearly when we had those, we all pretended that we were smoking stuff, because, again, it looked “cool”. When we were children, we forced ourselves to ingest things that we did not like the taste of; I am sure that we can all remember the first time we had a cup of coffee or, for most of us, a beer. We did not actually like the taste, but we pretended to like it until our neural pathways developed in such a way that we genuinely started to enjoy the bitterness and mildly caustic sensation that we experienced. It is also true that girls have a greater sensitivity to sugar and sweet flavours than boys do. That said, children crave, and are craving even more so these days, sweet flavours—often because they have a diet of processed foods that contain more sugar and salt, which train their tastebuds to be even more addicted, for want of a better phrase, to those sweet flavours. Research shows that flavoured tobacco products, especially menthol and fruit-based flavours, make smoking more appealing to young people. We have heard about studies from around the world. The Centres for Disease Control and Prevention in the States found that 80% of young people who use tobacco started with a flavoured product. By regulating the flavours, clause 92 aims to curb that youth smoking initiation and promote healthier choices. The clause aligns us with international standards. The hon. Member for City of Durham has already mentioned Canada, and the European Union has also implemented bans on flavoured tobacco products. Canada saw a 32% decline in youth smoking rates following a ban on menthol cigarettes, and we have also banned menthol cigarettes in this country. However, the Minister needs to consider a study— I think it was in The Lancet —that showed that, despite the ban on menthol cigarettes, the number of people who ingest tobacco via menthol-flavoured means has not diminished significantly in the UK. That is not because they are buying menthol cigarettes illegally or through illicit means, but because the manufacturers have found ways of putting that menthol-based flavour into the products. That can include things such as filters and other things. Indeed, I googled this before I came into the Committee, and I can buy cigarettes—it said, “Great news! There are some great menthol cigarette alternatives available to shop for here.” Presumably that is totally legal and I could buy them in the UK. My point is that the industry will try to get round the Government’s good intentions to ban menthol and other flavours in the vapes market. How does this legislation ensure that any kind of adaptation to a vape that can inject a flavour into it, not just the flavour of the product, is restricted and does not happen?

• 21 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  That is very helpful. If I have not already seen it in the evidence packs that have been sent to us, then I will look that up. I move on to clause 91—the features of the product. Implementing the regulations could require significant adjustments from manufacturers. To quote the Minister back to himself, he wants to move “like the clappers” on this. Although I welcome that, there needs to be a period where manufacturers have the opportunity to adapt to the rules.

• 21 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  Given that the hon. Member for City of Durham has decided not to press new clause 1 to a vote, I will not elaborate on it much, but she did mention that she might bring it back so I will just make a few comments. New clause 1 emphasises putting specific health warnings on individual cigarette papers and cigarettes. The hon. Member mentioned that Canada has introduced this and that Australia is thinking of doing so in coming months, specifically on the butts of the cigarettes. I believe there are warnings such as “toxic addiction” and “poison in every puff”—obviously, the phraseology has to be relatively succinct, given the size of a cigarette. I understand that the point in trying to make it clear to those using the product that it is unsafe, unhealthy and will have negative implications on their health, but I am not aware that there is any substantive evidence to suggest that placing such wording on individual papers or products has a noticeable impact on smoking cessation. If the hon. Member for City of Durham is planning to bring the new clause back later, or if the Minister is minded to pick it up in some way, we—as the Minister said during the debate on clause 90—must be data-driven along these lines. We should not put extra burdens on the producer and customer if there is no evidence that having individualised health warnings on individual cigarette papers and cigarettes has any noticeable effect on smoking cessation.

• 21 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I do—not at all.

• 21 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  Those sound like fairly reasonable timeframes; if the Minister were minded to follow those, I would support him, notwithstanding what I have already said. On clause 91, which I support, we need to ensure that there is a comprehensive stakeholder consultation for whatever the Minister plans to do in this area. There needs to be some kind of phased implementation—by which I mean an eight or nine-month period, or whatever—to ensure that manufacturers can catch up with whatever is being implemented. As I have said previously on other clauses, there must be robust enforcement mechanisms to ensure that manufacturers and retailers comply. Once again, this is all about educating the public about what the legislation means and what they should be expecting. Public education campaigns on this matter are essential.

• 21 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  On a point of order, Mr Dowd. To be clear, my understanding is that at a new day, we have to stop. Does that mean that the sitting runs until midnight, or can we carry on after that? My understanding is that a new day starts at one minute past midnight or one second past midnight.

• 21 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  My hon. Friend makes a good point, which she has already made during her interventions on this clause. It is vital to understand what is in the chemical make-up of the different flavours when the Minister is making those decisions. That brings me neatly on to my next point, which is about the flavours themselves. I know that the Minister and the shadow Minister have raised unicorn milk, tutti-frutti and bubble gum flavours and all those kinds of things. I suggest to the Minister that it is less the flavour itself that appeals to children—as my hon. Friend the shadow Minister said, I do not know what unicorn milk tastes like, and I doubt any child does either—but that the phraseology “unicorn milk” sounds exciting and appealing to a child, whereas orange or banana may be less exciting. When the Minister looks at this issue, I suggest that he looks not necessarily to ban a flavour, but to ban the naming and descriptions of those flavours, which are clearly appealing to children. If someone is looking to stop smoking and is using a vape to do so, it is not unreasonable that they should know whether what they are buying is orange, blackberry or strawberry-flavoured, whereas the terminology being used, which we have discussed in this debate already, appeals to children. I will bring my remarks to a close. I obviously agree with the Government’s intention to target specific flavours that appeal to young people to preserve harm reduction, but we need to monitor and assess the impact of that regulation over time. When the Minister winds up the debate on the clause, will he give some indication of how that analysis and the impact assessment of the bans on specific flavours has impacted on smoking cessation, hopefully stopping children being dragged into vaping?

• 21 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  We are debating a number of clauses and the amendments to them. I will first touch on amendments 6 to 9 in the name of the hon. Member for Dartford. I completely understand where he is coming from in trying to use data collected by companies producing such products and by retail outlets. It could have a significant health benefit. The hon. Member for Worthing West is a public health consultant and will, therefore, sympathise with the ambitions in the amendments. Where there is a problem, however, is in the sharing of such data. Clearly, to make that effective from a public health point of view, the information needs to be shared with the Department of Health and Social Care and with relevant public health authorities at a local level, whether that be combined authority mayors—or whatever comes in the Government’s reorganisation— or local authorities. My concern is that the data will be publicly available to everyone, including competitors in that market. That is an extremely dangerous precedent to set. We would not do something similar with alcohol, although we must agree that alcohol also harms, or with fatty foods or sweets. I am sure the Minister will tell me later, and I completely agree with him, that tobacco and vape products are not in the same scale as fatty foods and alcohol, but I still think that there is an anti-competitive nature to some of the measures in the Bill, especially in the amendments, in particular when it comes to different sizes of companies. My hon. Friend the shadow Minister mentioned the big players in this market. Let us remember that we are not banning vapes—we are just banning them for those under the age of 18, and rightly so—but by using this data, the big competitors in the market could squeeze out smaller retailers and smaller companies that produce vapes. Perhaps that was the hon. Member for Dartford’s intention, but giving succour to the big beasts in this game is probably not the way we want to go. I am not sure whether he will press his amendments to a vote, but, if the Minister and the Government accept the proposals, in this form or another, we should look at a way of ensuring that we can use this data for public health benefit without the unintended consequences that might come about from sharing it with competitors. Clauses 96 to 98, as drafted, all include a lot of positives. Clause 96 empowers the Secretary of State to require producers and importers of tobacco and vaping products to provide information about their product sales and potential health risks. Obviously, transparency is critical to ensure consumer protection, and to inform our policy making and effective regulation of the sale and manufacture of such products. A study by the World Health Organisation found that countries with strict tobacco information disclosure laws saw a 20% decrease in tobacco-related illnesses over a decade. That very much sits with my point about using data to drive policy. Mandating the detailed reporting that is mentioned in the clause will ensure that consumers have access to crucial data about product contents and the health implications.

• 21 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  My hon. Friend makes a key point, and she has been making it throughout our discussions, as have others. Clearly, we want to move as rapidly as possible to ensure that as few children as possible are addicted to cigarettes or ever pick one up. I completely agree that we should move as fast as possible, but we need to do it in a sensible way to ensure that manufacturers can implement what we want them to implement, and that we do not end up in a situation where they are caught out by that.

• 21 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  It is not currently clear to me what this clause means by a “product”. Does the shadow Minister feel that it is a specific product, potentially with a brand name, or a product that fits within a set of standards or regulations? For example, is this regulating precisely “Bob Smith’s vape”, and somebody else’s vape? Or do the regulations provide that a vape with a certain length, with a certain number of milligrams of nicotine in it, with a certain dispensing unit, will be compliant and therefore anybody who produces a vape that fits within those specifications will be compliant? Or is it that every single producer of every single vape and product will have to register with the relevant authorities?

• 21 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  Yes, absolutely. I think the shadow Minister is completely right. There is that point, in terms of potential fear—if that is the right word—for this person if they are not in a senior position. Indeed, some of the less scrupulous companies may seek to intimidate said compliance officer. Also, to be frank, a lack of expertise in this area could lead to ineffective compliance oversight. While that is something undesirable in and of itself, it can also potentially have negative impacts on the consumer. Finally, could the Minister say a bit about the potential legal-liability issues of this person? Nominating a single individual raises questions about personal legal liability. Will this individual be legally responsible for compliance —or non-compliance—or will that be the chief executive or someone else, or will there be corporate responsibility or liability for breaches of the standards? I really think that provisions should be in place to ensure that the company—the manufacturer, the producer—bears the ultimate responsibility, rather than this named individual. The clause needs a clear set of qualifications and criteria regarding the experience of said responsible person. We should make sure that the accountability is structured to prevent scapegoating of individuals, as the shadow Minister has mentioned, and some kind of training programme is in place to support those compliance officers in their roles so that they can enact their duties responsibly. We should also ensure that, should something go wrong, it is the company that holds ultimate responsibility and liability in law rather than that individual.

• 21 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  That is a real risk of the amendments tabled by the hon. Member for Dartford. Essentially, we would be mandating the companies to show their competitors and potential new entrants to the market where the potentially fertile—in the sense of wanting to buy the product, to be clear—areas of customers are so that they would know to target them. It seems rather strange that we would want to do that. I am sure that that is not the hon. Member’s intention, but it is a potential conflict of interest.

• 20 Jan 2025 · House Building Targets · Hansard source

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  In Waverley and East Hampshire, housing targets from this Government are doubling. When my constituents move into those homes when they are built, the infrastructure and services are simply not there. By “services”, I do not mean a phalanx of civil servants to help them move house; I mean the schools, play areas, supermarkets and road networks. Will the Secretary of State come to my constituency of Farnham and Bordon to see where we need that infrastructure, so that she can understand the implications that her housing targets have for my community?

• 20 Jan 2025 · House Building Targets · Hansard source

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  1. What plans she has to support councils with house building targets.

• 16 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Seventh sitting) · Hansard source

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  That is very helpful.

• 16 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Seventh sitting) · Hansard source

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  For clarity, does that notice give notice of the amount of the penalty or just that a penalty will be imposed? Can the retailer appeal to the weights and measures authority about whether they will get a fine, or are they simply told the amount of the fine that they are likely to get? If my hon. Friend does not know, perhaps the Minister might.

• 16 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Seventh sitting) · Hansard source

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  My hon. Friend is making an interesting point. What does she think about the idea of having a single licence? If a shop—for example, a small convenience store—is selling alcohol, tobacco, where it is still permitted under the regulation, and vapes for those over 18, would a single regulatory process and licensing scheme be more efficient and more beneficial both to the customer and the retailer?

• 16 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Seventh sitting) · Hansard source

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  I am sure the Minister has much greater understanding of his own Government’s policy, but my understanding is that there will be some devolution of powers to parish and town councils. Will they potentially become the licensing authority when there is a downward devolution of power?

• 16 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Seventh sitting) · Hansard source

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  I am not clear what sort of exceptions we might be talking about in clauses 16 and 19 being made by Westminster Ministers or Welsh Government Ministers—and I assume there will be a corollary in the other devolved nations when we get to them.

• 16 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Seventh sitting) · Hansard source

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  I completely understand the practical need to repeal a piece of legislation that is no longer workable under the new Bill, but can my hon. Friend assure me that everything in the previous legislation that is appropriate has been transferred into the current legislation, so that nothing has fallen through the cracks? If she is not an expert in Welsh legislation, perhaps the Minister could help when he responds.

• 16 Jan 2025 · Listed Places of Worship Grant Scheme · Hansard source

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  The withdrawal of the listed places of worship scheme disproportionately affects rural churches. In my constituency of Farnham and Bordon, six listed churches saved nearly £43,000 in the past financial year through the scheme. Directors of St Andrew’s in Farnham and of St Bartholomew’s and St Christopher’s in Haslemere have raised concerns with me this week about the oversubscribed nature of other grant opportunities, such as the National Lottery Heritage Fund, which combines heritage restoration under the same scheme as, for example, coastal protection in the Humber estuary. This dilutes the vital church funds needed for their heritage. Can the hon. Lady inform me how churches can be supported to preserve heritage in my constituency if the VAT relief for repairs is not reinstated?

• 16 Jan 2025 · Listed Places of Worship Grant Scheme · Hansard source

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  12. What discussions the Commissioners have had on the continuation of VAT relief under the listed places of worship grant scheme.