Georgia Gould MP: speeches

Speeches

• 25 Feb 2025 · Public Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) Bill (First sitting) · Hansard source

  More

  It is really reassuring to hear that because oversight is incredibly important to us. I have one more question, but I am happy to give way to others.

• 25 Feb 2025 · Public Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) Bill (First sitting) · Hansard source

  More

  Q What do you see as the biggest current threats in terms of fraud against the public sector and—if we have time—how does the Bill address them? Alex Rothwell: From my perspective it is the digital footprint that is left and our ability to analyse that at scale. Very few transactions, if any, take place that do not have a digital or electronic footprint of some kind. The data sharing and our capability to analyse that data is the most important factor. The Bill goes some way to addressing that, but obviously elements of the Bill are about responding to fraud once it has happened. That, for me, is the biggest challenge. But on top of that are the safeguards that we put in place to ensure that our interpretation of that analysis is also correct.

• 25 Feb 2025 · Public Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) Bill (First sitting) · Hansard source

  More

  Q Thanks for bringing your significant experience to this discussion. My question builds on Dr Rasha Kassem’s point about the importance of oversight. That is something that we have taken very seriously in drafting the Bill and trying to ensure that independent oversight is built into every part. I am interested in the assessment of all the witnesses of the level of oversight that is built in. As we develop further work, guidance and training, is there anything we need to think about to continue to strengthen that? Professor Button: If you look at this in the broader context of hybrid policing bodies, which is one of my areas of study—non-police bodies that engage in a whole range of enforcement functions—what is being proposed in terms of the accountability of this body compared with, say, the Health and Safety Executive, the Gangmasters and Labour Abuse Authority and some of the many other different types of enforcement bodies is certainly on a par with, if not better, than some of those organisations, with the inspection, the complaints body that people have access to and the additional measures in place. One of the crucial areas is obviously when you get to prosecutions. With the Post Office scandal, we have seen the challenges if you have too much control over prosecution as well. The Department for Work and Pensions does use the Crown Prosecution Service, but with the lesser sanctions, it might be an issue to have more accountability, where you have that situation, to avoid excessive use of those penalties in a very negative way. That is possibly the only area where I would see an issue. Otherwise, the accountability measures are very similar to the many other hybrid enforcement bodies that central Government have.

• 25 Feb 2025 · Public Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) Bill (First sitting) · Hansard source

  More

  Q You have talked a little about the kind of police pressures that exist. I would be interested in both of your assessments, given your experience, of the police’s capacity and ability to investigate public sector fraud, and whether that means there is more of a need for civil powers. Alex Rothwell: If we look across other international jurisdictions, we see that law enforcement agencies often have quite distinctive public sector fraud or crime functions—for example, the FBI has an extensive healthcare fraud capacity. The way policing has evolved over the last 20 or 30 years, particularly with an emphasis on drug supply, knife crime and firearms, has meant there is little capacity in policing to tackle public sector fraud, and of course there is an ever-present terrorism threat, which is changing rapidly. There is also safeguarding, with the National Crime Agency having quoted publicly the figures in terms of people who are a risk to children, for example. One of the challenges is that even if you invest more in fraud capability, when a crisis happens, whether that is because of public order or some other form of crisis, policing has to flex more than other investigations. Inevitably, crimes like fraud are perhaps easier to put on hold for a time. Certainly since 2018 we have seen a gradual professionalisation and an increasing capability in the public sector, which I endorse. We could invest more in the police, but my concern is that there will continue to be crises that affect policing that will impact the ability of policing to support the public sector in the way that is required. Kristin Jones: I agree with everything that Alex just said. The same applies to prosecution: if you have specialist prosecutors, where the resource is ringfenced, they do not get dragged away, but if you have them in with other prosecutors, it depends on what the pressure is at any particular time as to what resource is going to be given to fraud prosecutions.

• 25 Feb 2025 · Public Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) Bill (First sitting) · Hansard source

  More

  I very much agree. Kristin Jones: Increasingly in society today knowing what the truth is, with the amount of data and false information out there, can be the problem.

• 25 Feb 2025 · Public Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) Bill (First sitting) · Hansard source

  More

  Q You also talked about the importance of training. Part of the reason that we are starting off quite small is because the PSFA has broader powers than those under the DWP part of the Bill—for example, with the powers to levy fines, there will be authorised officers who have training and who have to apply to courts to use search warrants and so on. What are your thoughts on how we ensure that that training means that those 24 officers have the necessary expertise to be able to take on these powers? Helena Wood: That is a really good question, which deserves more considered thought. These are people who have not gone through the police training process, for example. I wonder if it is worth considering whether we make use of the powers contingent on being a financial investigator, as accredited under the Proceeds of Crime Act. However, I make that suggestion with some caution, knowing that in a practical sense there is a national shortage of financial investigators across the country. We are haemorrhaging these individuals; we train them up in the public sector and they go straight out to be poached by the financial sector, and probably to respond to some of these measures set out in the Bill. I say this with some caution, however, as that is a properly accredited and overseen process of skills. We need to look carefully about who exercises those powers and whether they need to do an analogous police training programme. I think there is some consideration of the professionalising investigations programme, although they cannot be officially credited over time—they will not be using the powers as frequently as that process would require. Those are the parts of the Bill I would like to see strengthened in some way. It is perhaps incumbent on the Government to look at what the other routes are beyond a financial investigator to ensure the right level of competence in using what are very intrusive powers.

• 5 Feb 2025 · Draft Procurement Act 2023 (Consequential and Other Amendments) Regulations 2025 · Hansard source

  More

  I am delighted to engage in my first such debate with the hon. Gentleman. We are absolutely clear that the Procurement Act and the new national procurement policy statement have to support economic growth, small and medium-sized businesses and innovation. I have been engaging heavily with SMEs and the message they have given is that they can find Government procurement as it is slow and burdensome, and they often do not feel that they have a place at the table. I believe that the changes we have made to the NPPS strengthen the commitment to small businesses that is absolutely at the heart of our agenda. The hon. Gentleman referenced the Employment Rights Bill. Obviously, that is a completely different piece of legislation and is not relevant to today’s regulations, but decent jobs are really important in supporting economic growth. The Procurement Act is very much focused on growth and supporting SMEs, and that is what we will take forward. I am happy to have further discussions on the other points he raised. Question put and agreed to.

• 5 Feb 2025 · Draft Procurement Act 2023 (Consequential and Other Amendments) Regulations 2025 · Hansard source

  More

  I beg to move, That the Committee has considered the draft Procurement Act 2023 (Consequential and Other Amendments) Regulations 2025. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Mr Mundell, for what is my first Delegated Legislation Committee. This statutory instrument represents the final legislative step in implementing the Procurement Act 2023, which introduces a new public procurement regime responsible for over £385 billion in public contracts annually. The new regime, set to come into force on 24 February 2025, aligns with our mission-driven approach and supports the Prime Minister’s commitment to economic growth by establishing a simpler and more transparent system. In order to fully implement the Procurement Act, we must first ensure that procurement references in other pieces of legislation are updated to align with the new regime. The draft regulations make the consequential amendments that are a routine aspect of implementing primary legislation. They also make necessary updates to the schedules to the Procurement Act to ensure compliance with our international obligations. They amend schedule 9 to the Procurement Act to update the list of specified international agreements that identify treaty state suppliers for the purposes of the Act. The amendments will update the UK’s market access coverage in our trade agreements with Ukraine, Moldova, Georgia, Kosovo, North Macedonia and Albania, removing access to contracts for healthcare services and enabling the Health Care Services (Provider Selection Regime) Regulations 2023, introduced in January last year, to work as intended. Further technical amendments include updating the list of central Government authorities in the Procurement Act. In addition to those technical adjustments, the draft instrument enhances transparency in public procurement. It also updates how key performance indicators are handled in contract details and performance notices. Finally, it outlines how to calculate whether the sale of excess electricity, gas or water, produced as a by-product of another non-utility activity, falls under the Act where the operator wants to sell it to a network. In summary, the draft regulations are essential to ensure that the existing legislative framework functions as intended, while facilitating a transparent, efficient and effective public procurement regime. The final legislative step in implementing the 2023 Act will strengthen the system for public procurement across the UK, benefiting businesses, taxpayers and the public sector. I hope that all hon. Members will join me in supporting and approving the regulations today.

• 29 Jan 2025 · Outsourcing: Government Departments · Hansard source

  More

  This is my first time responding to a Westminster Hall debate, and it is an honour to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Jeremy. I join many Members in expressing my thanks to my hon. Friend the Member for Middlesbrough and Thornaby East (Andy McDonald) for his contribution, and I echo the comments that have been made about his constructive and thoughtful work on this issue. Many Members had only a short time to set out their views. My hon. Friend the Member for Normanton and Hemsworth (Jon Trickett) said that four minutes was not quite enough, given his 29 years’ experience. That far surpasses my few months, so I would welcome the opportunity to have further discussions with any colleagues across the House. Critical issues were raised about a whole range of public services, and I would welcome the opportunity to sit down with Members ahead of putting forward the new national procurement policy statement. I join many Members in paying tribute to the work of outsourced staff—the security guards, cleaners and catering teams—who play a vital role in supporting Government and who allow all of us to do our jobs. They serve the public and the public sector, and are, in the case of the security teams, the front door to Government. Whether staff are directly employed or contracted, they are engaging in vital public services, and these should be decent jobs with progression routes, as we have heard. My hon. Friend the Member for Middlesbrough and Thornaby East is right to raise the topic of outsourcing. As the Government set out in our plan to make work pay, we need to learn the lessons from the collapse of Carillion and more effectively manage markets to ensure the right mix of provision. That means ending the previous Administration’s dogmatic drive to privatise our public services. I was interested to hear the comments about ideology, having watched for the last 14 years as an ideologically driven approach led to waste, poor value for money and, in some cases, poor public services—for example, the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire (Mike Wood) referenced the failed outsourcing of probation services. We must ensure that all contracts are transparent and accountable and provide value for money for the British taxpayer. I was surprised to hear the comments about progress. Like the right hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell), I have a background in local government—I think we both have a background at Camden council. While I was in local government, I saw billions wasted on PPE, and I saw the waste of the test and trace contract, when those of us in local government knew that public health officials and housing staff were ready to go out and do that work. Yet, so much money went to private providers, and I saw the ballooning cost of consultants. The hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Bobby Dean) referenced children’s homes. The new Government have had to step in to end the exploitative practice of some private sector organisations making excessive profits from services for vulnerable children. Under the previous Government, we saw a significant increase in privately run children’s homes, with a Competition and Markets Authority report suggesting that the 15 largest children’s home providers make an average 23% profit per year. Is that value for money? This Government have shone a light on those profits, set a new cap and given Ofsted new powers to investigate and impose fines for exploitative practices. As the leader of a council, I saw how insourced public services, when managed carefully over time, with robust assessment of benefits and outcomes, can deliver savings for taxpayers and better public services. During covid, I saw how our in-house repairs service immediately moved to delivering food, often volunteering to work long hours to support residents. I saw the pride and commitment that came from working for the council, and the greater flexibility and innovation that that could bring. I agree with the hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington that there is huge innovation in the public sector. As we saw under the previous Government, outsourced services can too often deliver a race to the bottom on quality and standards, and a self-defeating approach that harms taxpayers and value for money. This Government are determined to deliver good public services and better value for money. That includes making decisions about how to deliver services to avoid the waste we saw under the previous Government. We have already begun to deliver reform of the frameworks for outsourcing, with provisions in the Employment Rights Bill to strengthen and reinstate the two-tier code introduced under the last Labour Government. The new Procurement Act will come into effect next month, creating a simpler and more flexible procurement system underpinned by a new mission-focused national procurement policy statement. I did not recognise the comments made about that work. I have engaged deeply with SMEs, businesses, the voluntary sector, social enterprise, contracting authorities, trade unions and a wide range of stakeholders to ensure that the NPPS delivers our missions for the country, with growth at the heart of what we want to achieve. The statement will set out the Government’s policy priorities, and contracting authorities will have to have regard to it when carrying out procurements. That will be the first step to ending the last Government’s ideological fixation with outsourcing. I am pleased to say that the statement is almost complete, as we continue to have those conversations, and I look forward to laying it before both Houses shortly. I want to respond directly to the points made about outsourcing. I agree with the position of Christina McAnea and Unison, which was highlighted by my hon. Friend the Member for Middlesbrough and Thornaby East, that a public interest test should be in place before services are outsourced, to ensure value for money and the best outcomes. The NPPS will set out how we plan to make it easier for public authorities to test the best possible model to provide value for money and outcomes for the taxpayer, and end the ideological presumption on outsourcing. Through these measures, the Government will achieve greater value for money for the people and businesses of this country, moving away from relying on a few large suppliers and being more open to investment across the country in the areas that need it most. Key to that is supporting SMEs. I hear so often from SMEs that they find engaging with Government procurement complex and burdensome. Part of the work we want to do involves diversifying the providers that come forward, whether that is SMEs, social enterprises or voluntary sector organisations. We have also begun to assess the areas of Government that could be done more effectively in house, and where there may be compelling reasons for Government to develop their own capabilities and capacity to deliver good value for money and better public services. Again, I welcome a wider discussion of that. That work will recognise the practical hurdles to building Government capacity, particularly in a constrained fiscal environment, and when many public services are under huge strain. Having brought a number of services in house in local government, I know that it can be very powerful and save money, but it also takes time, planning and investment. The lead-in times on procurement are significant, and there is no quick fix. However, active work is happening on those critical issues. We are clear that we will end the last Government’s tunnel vision on large-scale outsourcing and consider the best way to achieve our missions and the best outcomes for citizens. As I have set out, we want to see more diversity, including social enterprises, co-ops, mutuals, voluntary sector organisations and SMEs. We will use the measures in the Procurement Act to open up procurement to that more diverse supply base. Hon. Members spoke of ensuring that we have the right capacity to manage contracts, as well as transparency throughout the process, and that will be at the core of the work we are leading. We are clear that public sector procurement is an important engine of growth for the economy and that there are purpose-driven businesses providing good-quality jobs. However, as we have heard from some surveys, there is poor practice across the economy. That is why we have introduced the Employment Rights Bill to increase standards and ensure there are decent jobs, not just as part of Government contracts, but across the economy. I do not have a huge amount of time, and I will not go through all the measures, but they address some of the questions put to me today. The provisions in the Employment Rights Bill will empower Ministers to reinstate and strengthen the two-tier code through regulations and a statutory code of practice, which is critical. I end by thanking my hon. Friend the Member for Middlesbrough and Thornaby East for bringing forward this issue. As we work on the new NPPS, his insights and those of all those here are very welcome, and I am open to ideas from every part of the House. Close to £400 billion is spent on public procurement, which is a huge amount, and we need to ensure that it provides growth and opportunity across the country. We should use procurement to ensure that there are good jobs for our citizens in every community. Whenever we decide to spend taxpayers’ money, it is right that we make an assessment of what will deliver the best outcomes for citizens and value for money. Unlike the last Government, we will never put ideology before people.

• 23 Jan 2025 · Fraud: Public Sector · Hansard source

  More

  My hon. Friend, as a local government leader during the pandemic, will know how hard things were for communities; sacrifices were made and people risked their lives to keep the rest of us safe. He will share my anger at those who used the national crisis to steal billions from the taxpayer. We will take action on that where the last Government failed. The Public Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) Bill, which was introduced yesterday, will give the Government tough new powers to investigate and recover money stolen from the public and will double the time we have to bring those fraudsters to justice.

• 23 Jan 2025 · Fraud: Public Sector · Hansard source

  More

  Yesterday, the Government announced ambitious new legislation to take action on fraud, updating the Department for Work and Pensions’ powers for the first time in 20 years and introducing new powers to take on high-value fraud across the wider public sector. At the Budget, the Chancellor announced the biggest welfare fraud and error budget in recent history. Under the last Government, fraud spiralled out of control, but we are determined to protect every pound of taxpayers’ money.

• 23 Jan 2025 · Public Procurement: Reform · Hansard source

  More

  Yesterday, the National Audit Office published a report on the almost £50 billion gap in building maintenance. That is the legacy that the last Government left us: crumbling buildings, 15 years of lost wage growth and stalled productivity. Compare that with this Government’s record in just the past six months: £63 billion investment at the UK investment summit and leading the way on artificial intelligence. The International Monetary Fund upgraded our growth to the fastest in Europe. The Opposition might want to run down this country, but we are determined to grow our economy.

• 23 Jan 2025 · Public Procurement: Reform · Hansard source

  More

  Under this Government, public procurement will be laser focused on delivering our missions and value for money for the taxpayer. The Procurement Act 2023 will commence in February, creating a simpler, more flexible procurement regime underpinned by a new mission-led national procurement policy statement. I really welcome the wide interest of hon. Members from across the House in this work and that of so many small businesses, social enterprises and voluntary sector organisations. I look forward to bringing forward the NPPS to support small and medium-sized enterprises, tackle waste and deliver on our missions.

• 23 Jan 2025 · Public Procurement: Reform · Hansard source

  More

  I welcomed the conversation last week with my hon. Friend, who talked me through the importance of small and medium-sized enterprises to growth in Truro and Falmouth. A lot of small businesses I have spoken to say the same thing: it can be too complex and slow to bid for Government contracts, sometimes those contracts come out too late and sometimes they cannot get on the playing field. We have listened very carefully to what my hon. Friend and others have to say on these issues, and we will bring forward an NPPS that delivers for SMEs.

• 23 Jan 2025 · Topical Questions · Hansard source

  More

  I welcome the recent conversation with my hon. Friend on this important matter. The Government’s industrial strategy outlines the importance of manufacturing in the defence industry to economic growth and national security. The new national procurement policy statement will put growth at the heart of procurement and will align to our industrial strategy.

• 23 Jan 2025 · Topical Questions · Hansard source

  More

  I have met the CMA about the critical issue of bid rigging, and it is something the Government are looking into. More broadly, the Procurement Act 2023 and the new national procurement policy statement put transparency and openness at the heart of our strategy, including a new online portal, which will make it much easier to see upcoming bids.

• 23 Jan 2025 · Topical Questions · Hansard source

  More

  I have heard very similar things from the small and medium-sized enterprises I have been talking to around the country. We are bringing forward a new national procurement policy statement that will put SMEs right at the heart of Government procurement policies.

• 23 Jan 2025 · Topical Questions · Hansard source

  More

  It was wonderful to visit Milton Keynes and to see the work of a pioneering Labour council. The work the Labour council has led to open up services to the NHS is a real example of the shift to community that the Government are committed to. Milton Keynes shows that when a wonderful MP works with a Labour council and the NHS amazing things can happen.

• 5 Dec 2024 · Topical Questions · Hansard source

  More

  My hon. Friend is right to raise that point. Earlier this week, the Chancellor announced the appointment of Tom Hayhoe as the covid counter-fraud commissioner. The new commissioner will leave no stone unturned to investigate the unacceptable waste and fraud during the pandemic and to make sure that we learn lessons for the future.

• 5 Dec 2024 · Topical Questions · Hansard source

  More

  Under the Conservative Government, too much taxpayers’ money was wasted on eye-watering consultancy contracts. We are taking steps to stop all non-essential Government consultancy spending this year and halve Government spending on consultancy in future years. [ Interruption. ] It might be hard for Conservative Members to hear about their record, but it is harder for us to live with it.

• 5 Dec 2024 · Topical Questions · Hansard source

  More

  I thank my hon. Friend for her question and for the time she spent with me last week setting out the opportunities of procurement and the needs of her community in Darlington. We have heard from the whole House today how important it is to back small and medium- sized enterprises that have roots in communities, and we are determined that the new national policy procurement statement will do that.

• 5 Dec 2024 · Public Procurement Reform · Hansard source

  More

  Through our procurement regime, we are determined to support small businesses, which are often locally rooted. We will continue to do that, while taking account of our trade obligations.

• 5 Dec 2024 · Public Procurement Reform · Hansard source

  More

  As I have said, we will work hard to ensure that public contracts are supporting small businesses. I have spent a lot of time talking to them about how we can do that through the new public procurement policy and the measures in the policy statement. This week the Chancellor announced the appointment of a new covid corruption commissioner, who will be taking action to recover public money.

• 5 Dec 2024 · Public Procurement Reform · Hansard source

  More

  When our public services are facing so much strain and desperately need rebuilding, it is critical that we cut waste and deliver value for money. Under the last Government the procurement system too often failed to drive that efficiency, as was shown by the shocking levels of fraud and waste during the pandemic. We will bring new transparency to public sector procurement, along with a relentless focus on fraud.

• 5 Dec 2024 · Public Procurement Reform · Hansard source

  More

  That £400 billion is an enormous amount of money, and we need to ensure that it is going into growth, delivering for our communities and SMEs, and delivering on our missions. We are determined to act on procurement and reduce inefficiency, and we will provide further information about that in February. We cannot take lessons from the Conservative party about cutting waste inefficiencies, given that they oversaw gross mismanagement—Lord Agnew himself referred to “schoolboy errors”—in the delivery of procurement for this country.