Danny Kruger MP: speeches

Speeches

• 25 Mar 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-ninth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I hope the hon. Lady does not really think that I or others think the status quo defensible. There are clearly major problems with our palliative care system that we all recognise and want to improve. I would be grateful if she acknowledged that we need to improve palliative care. On the hon. Lady’s point about remuneration, the Bill specifies that it would not be regarded as illegitimate for doctors to earn reasonable remuneration. What does she think “reasonable” is? How would we designate the appropriate remuneration for doctors? Does she agree that there is nothing in the Bill to stop private providers supplying the service and making money from it?

• 25 Mar 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-ninth sitting) · Hansard source

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  We can distinguish between the organisational income and the specific doctor’s income, but the same applies in both cases. Explicitly, the doctor who is making the decisions should not feel the pressure or the temptation of financial reward to expedite or approve applications for assisted dying. I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s invitation. By all means, let us try to make sure that, should the Bill reach Report stage, we remove the danger of perverse incentives in the way that the service is commissioned. Question put, That the amendment be made.

• 25 Mar 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-ninth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I do not want to take the Committee’s time, but I invite the Bill’s promoter or the Minister to make an observation about the implications of clause 38, because the power to make “such supplementary, incidental or consequential provision…as the Secretary of State considers appropriate for the purposes or in consequence of any provision made by this Act.” reads to me as extremely broad. Not to repeat the point ad nauseam, but I am concerned, as ever, about the degree of discretion given to Ministers—most of it under the negative procedure. I invite the promoter or the Minister to lay out, in as much detail as they are able, the purpose of this clause and what sorts of provisions it might enable.

• 25 Mar 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-ninth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I intend, in a later debate when we come to the new clause, to try to explain how I think we should have done this. The answer to the hon. Gentleman’s question is that an organisation should be resourced—I think through philanthropy, rather than taxpayers’ money or people paying out of their own pocket, but the point stands however we do it—to deliver the assisted dying service, but crucially it should not be paid more per service, treatment or customer. We should not have the concept of customers in this arrangement; there should be a provider who is resourced to deliver this service. The crucial point is that they should not be paid more per client or for progressing people through the system.

• 25 Mar 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-ninth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I will press new clause 34 to a vote. Question put, That the clause be read a Second time.

• 25 Mar 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-ninth sitting) · Hansard source

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  First, on the proposed amendment to the NHS Act, will the Minister confirm that the implication is that it is not currently possible to deliver assisted dying services under the Act? Secondly, to help me understand new clause 36, is it proposed that the Government will amend the NHS Act through regulations, a statutory instrument, or will the courts read the new clause as inferring that assisted dying is compatible with the NHS Act? Is there an intention to change the wording of the NHS Act, or is it just that we should now read “healthcare” as including assisted dying? I would be very grateful if the Minister could explain, because it is not clear to me from the phrasing.

• 25 Mar 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-ninth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I share all the hon. Lady’s concerns. In relation to the intervention made by the hon. Member for Spen Valley, is she aware that G4S has a health services division in the UK that directly employs doctors and other healthcare professionals?

• 25 Mar 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-ninth sitting) · Hansard source

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  In opposing my amendment, the hon. Member is declaring herself content with the text of the clause as it is. The text as drafted would allow a doctor to be paid more, the more applications that they receive, process and refer on. That might not be, in her mind, how the system should work—I would be grateful to know how the system should work, because it is not in the Bill or in the amendments. We have a very vague arrangement here, whereby a private provider would be enabled to deliver assisted dying—indeed, a profit-making organisation would be able to manage the entire process from beginning to end, even referring a second assessment to another part of their own company.

• 25 Mar 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-ninth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Clause 32 disagreed to. Clause 33 Notifications to Chief Medical Officers

• 25 Mar 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-ninth sitting) · Hansard source

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  In a moment. The potential—as would happen in other parts of genuine healthcare—is that the more work people do, the more money they get. My concern is that that induces a dangerous incentive into the system. Having a global fee paid to a provider who managed the service would be much safer. The crucial point is that we prevent people being paid for approving and enabling assisted deaths, and that is what my amendment would do.

• 25 Mar 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-ninth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I take your ruling, Mrs Harris, but the amendment is explicitly about this.

• 25 Mar 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-ninth sitting) · Hansard source

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  That was an interesting exchange. I think I agree with the hon. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge more than I do with the hon. Member for Bradford West, which is an uncomfortable situation for me, but I want to show that I am actually listening. I also agree with the Minister of State, Ministry of Justice, the hon. and learned Member for Finchley and Golders Green, who said last week that, without a statutory meaning, the terms “coercion” and “pressure” have their natural, ordinary meaning, which is well understood by the public and the courts alike. I have encouraged more clarification and clarity throughout the Committee’s deliberations, and I accept the point made by the hon. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge and the Minister that we are in a good place in outline in terms of understanding these concepts. However, I agree with the hon. Members for Penistone and Stocksbridge and for Bradford West that it would be helpful to have further clarity from the Ministers. If there is guidance to come, it is important that we proceed with due respect to the points that have been made, including the proposals from the hon. Member for Lowestoft, which I agree with in principle. However, I want to make the point behind my amendment (a) to amendment 518, tabled by the hon. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge, even though I understand she will not push it to a vote, so I cannot push mine. She challenged me about the purpose of my amendment, so I want to explain it. There are two places in the Bill where the concepts of coercion and pressure occur: one is in the context of the assessment process for eligibility for assisted death, and the other is in terms of the criminal offence of coercion into an assisted death. Those are two separate areas of the Bill, but they use the same terminology, and the same principle of coercion is behind them both. The point of my amendment is to make clear the distinction between eligibility and the criminality involved in coercion. Although I entirely agree with the hon. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge that it is appropriate to retain the principle of intention—to be clear, my amendment would remove the requirement for evidence of intention to coerce, leaving just the fact of coercion in the definition—her point was that it is important to retain evidence of intention in order for the criminal offence to be meaningful. I accept that that is a point in criminal law. However, it is important that we do not include intention in the context of the assessment of eligibility criteria, for the simple reason that somebody may well be coerced into an assisted death in a way that we would all understand, but the perpetrator may not have had the explicit intention of that outcome. An example would be where an abusive husband, through abuse, victimisation, relentless unkindness and perhaps the direct communication of, “You’d be better off dead,” has the effect of coercing his victim—his wife—into seeking an assisted death, which might well be subject to criminal prosecution on these terms. He would nevertheless be able potentially to claim that that was not his intention, and, indeed, perhaps it was not. He might not have had the explicit thought in his head, “I want to make her apply for an assisted death.” Nevertheless, that is the consequence of his coercive behaviour. I would hope that when the doctors assessed that particular case and came across evidence of that pattern of abuse, they would conclude that this person was being coerced, and would therefore not award the applicant the green light to proceed. That is an example of where it is important to remove the intention of coercion from the definition. I entirely agree with the hon. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge about the value and necessity of including intention where we are talking about the criminal offence of inducing somebody to have an assisted death. Lastly, let us think about this from the point of view of the doctor or panel who are being asked to approve the application. If the definition of coercion includes the intention to coerce, we are inviting—in fact, requiring— the doctor or panel to seek evidence of the intention of the person doing the coercion, rather than just the fact of the patient having been coerced. We would require them somehow to interview the abuser, so I think we would get into difficult territory if we insisted on evidence of coercion in order to deny the application on that basis. I hope that that helps to explain the purpose behind my amendment. I know it is slightly academic, because we are not proceeding with amendment 518, but I hope the Minister and the hon. Member for Spen Valley reflect on the points made by the hon. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge and take them on board in subsequent amendments or guidance.

• 25 Mar 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-ninth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time. This will be my last speech in this Committee, so before I speak to the important principle expressed in new clause 34, may I thank you, Sir Roger, and all your colleagues who have chaired the Committee? I also thank the Clerks, who have done a huge amount of amazing work behind the scenes, and all members of the Committee; I particularly thank the hon. Member for Spen Valley for her good faith and good nature throughout the process. I have great respect for all Committee members. A particular hero was the hon. Member for Southgate and Wood Green, who was the most popular speaker every day. [Laughter.] I am looking forward to his final speech. I pay tribute to all those hon. Members who did not serve on the Committee but contributed to our debates by tabling amendments; I really am encouraged by many of them. I pay particular tribute to the hon. Member for York Central, who has been a very powerful influence on me and has attempted to do very good work with the Committee. I also wish to mention my hon. Friend the Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Dr Spencer). Perhaps in sympathy with the hon. Member for Harrogate and Knaresborough, the most liberal member of the Committee, he has attempted to create an assisted dying Bill that does justice to the principles of autonomy behind it. My new clause reflects my hon. Friend’s conception of the Bill. His amendments would have taken assisted dying out of the NHS, and indeed out of healthcare altogether. He was right to try to do that. If we are to do this thing, we should recognise that what we are proposing to legalise is not healthcare. Indeed, new clause 36 recognises the essential incompatibility between the service proposed here and healthcare as it is traditionally understood in our country and enshrined in the NHS Act. More than that, the foundations of healthcare in the west are contravened by the Bill. The Hippocratic oath contains the promise: “Neither will I administer a poison to anybody when asked to do so, nor will I suggest such a course.” That is the oath that doctors take, and it has been the ethical basis of medical practice in the west for millennia. The Bill would be the final, official abandonment of that ethical tradition. I implore the Committee to reflect on the essential principle that healthcare is the antidote to sickness, whereas this proposal for assisted suicide is the antidote to life. That is the treatment that the Bill proposes to legalise. It is entirely different from healthcare, in principle and in practice. It is therefore no surprise that so many of the professional bodies involved in healthcare regard this proposed treatment as incompatible with their professions. The BMA agrees that this should be a separate service. I was struck by a BMJ article that appeared last November, “Reframing assisted dying through the civil law: possibilities and challenges for the UK”, which was written by a group of palliative care professionals. It sets out how, if assisted dying is to be legalised in this country, it might best be organised and delivered. New clause 34 and all that flows from it would enable us to design a better assisted suicide service than the one that the Bill would give us. The hon. Member for Spen Valley this morning and the hon. Member for Sunderland Central this afternoon asked how it should be done, if we are to do it. My hon. Friend the Member for Reigate offered some suggestions. I will build on what she said by saying how I think the Bill should have been framed—indeed, how I and others, through the amendments we have tabled, have tried to ensure it is framed. We have tried to match the Bill to the campaign for assisted suicide. Understandably, there is considerable public support for people at the end of their life, who are at risk of suffering a terrible, agonising death and whom palliative care cannot help, to have the right to end their life a few days or weeks early. We can argue about how many people that is. I think the number of people whom palliative care could not help if we organised our palliative care system properly is infinitesimally small—almost non-existent. However, we disagree on that, so let us assume that there are some people who will fall into that category. The campaign for this Bill is the campaign for those people to have the right to an assisted death, but that is not what we have in the Bill. What we have is a right for anybody who in the opinion of two doctors might reasonably be expected to die within six months to request and receive lethal drugs, all paid for and assisted by the NHS. That is not what the campaign has been for. Let me suggest how, if we are to be honest to the campaign, we should design this thing: not as healthcare, but as a compassionate suicide service for people facing physical agony at the very end of their life. As we tried to ensure at the beginning of our deliberations, eligibility would be for people fearing pain, not for those feeling a burden. There would be a proper capacity test, not the Mental Capacity Act 2005 test. There would be proper, meaningful safeguards against coercion. We would have doctors and a multidisciplinary team at the right stage of the process: right at the beginning, at the first assessment. We would have all the appropriate signposting and palliative care provision as an alternative to assisted suicide. We would then have a proper judicial process to decide whether to approve the application. As for provision, from assessment through to the final act it should not be in the NHS. It should not be provided by any profit-making providers advertising their services and receiving money for every death that they assist, which is what we have probably got with the Bill. It should be provided by non-profit organisations, should be tightly regulated and should be funded not through NHS commissioning or by the patients, but by philanthropy. The scale of all this is to be discovered, I guess, if we pursue the Bill. It has been suggested that the lower end of the expectation is about 6,000 deaths per year. On the calculations made by the experts in the paper I cited, it would need a budget of about £10 million a year to manage a 6,000-person caseload. That is in the ballpark of what the campaign groups promoting the Bill have been spending, so I do not think that there would be any difficulty in raising that sort of money if it is what people want. After all, hospices have to raise millions of pounds every year to fund their work. I do not see why assisted dying services should not be able, and required, to do the same thing. There was a way to do this more consistently with the campaign for assisted suicide. For the avoidance of doubt, I would have opposed that too, because even that much more honest and tightly circumscribed service would profoundly alter our society—it would send the signal that some people are better off dead, and I think it would be wrong for our country—but at least it would be honest. It would be consistent with the campaign. I will end with the observation that what I have just described is what I think the public think the Committee is doing: designing a service like that for the small number of people at the very end of their life who are facing a terrible physical death. That is not what we have done, it is not what the Committee has approved, it is not what the original Bill said and it is not what the Bill now says as we send it back to the House. I hope that the public and our colleagues in Parliament will recognise that this Bill is not the one that they thought they were getting.

• 25 Mar 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-ninth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I am keen on actual judges who sit in court with the full authority of a judge, not a retired judge sitting at the head of a quango very far away from the decisions made about assisted dying. Nevertheless, I am grateful to the hon. Lady, and I appreciate the fact that there will be a duty to consult. We want to have as much input from the CMO as possible in the administration of the service.

• 25 Mar 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-ninth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I beg to move amendment 527, in clause 40, page 24, line 14, at end insert “provided that such remuneration is not structured in a manner where it would be greater as a result of the registered medical practitioner approving the request.” This is the point at which the season of consensus is over; I am back to opposing. Amendment 527 would insist that any remuneration for taking part in assisted dying on behalf of the medical profession would not enable a system whereby a medic, practice or private provider would be remunerated according to approving the different stages of the process. I am trying to prevent the provision of any incentive in the system for moving people through it. We know that there can be a paid private service delivered under the Bill. The concern is that we will create perverse incentives in the system that will prejudice objective decision making. I take the points about the disinterested good faith of all medics; nevertheless, I do not want to put them in danger of feeling the pressure of perverse incentives. We must recognise the importance of keeping absolute financial neutrality in the operation of the Bill. There would be significant ethical red flags about a system that essentially enabled performance-related pay tied to approving requests for assisted dying, let alone paying doctors to provide referrals to a co-ordinating doctor. At the moment, I do not see that the Bill prevents that. Even if there were no such danger, I am not sure that patients would buy it. From the point of view of trust in the medical profession, we must bear in mind that any doctor could be involved. Any doctor could either raise the suggestion or be required to signpost a patient who raised it themselves—the whole of the NHS is essentially implicated in the proposed system. As the hon. Member for Spen Valley has reiterated today, she wants assisted dying to be an integral part of the NHS. Let us protect the NHS from the distrust of patients by ensuring that financial incentives are not in the mix for these life and death decisions.

• 25 Mar 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-ninth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I imagine that a doctor who works for the non-profit service I am envisioning would be paid a salary and do their work, but would not be paid on a per-client basis—they would not be paid a tariff for the number of people they passed through the system, let alone for the different chunks of the process. People need to be paid, but they should not be paid on a per-client basis, because that would introduce dangerous incentives into the system.

• 25 Mar 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-ninth sitting) · Hansard source

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  That is the purpose of my amendment.

• 25 Mar 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-ninth sitting) · Hansard source

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  New clause 36 specifies that the NHS Act will require amendment. Is the Minister saying that that is not in fact the case?

• 24 Mar 2025 · Planning and Infrastructure Bill · Hansard source

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  I very much agree with what my hon. Friend is saying. Does he agree that more could be done to protect irreplaceable chalk stream habitats, particularly in the south of England? Does he also agree that one thing we could do is designate those chalk stream habitats to be irreplaceable and ensure that the Government specify clearly what permissions might be available there?

• 19 Mar 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-seventh sitting) · Hansard source

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  I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Clause 29, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clause 30 Codes of practice

• 19 Mar 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-seventh sitting) · Hansard source

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  It is good to see you this evening, Mrs Harris. I have no objection to the hon. Lady’s amendments. I think there is value in broadening the offence to include actions performed intentionally or recklessly, as that is critical for patient safety. Given the finality of the result of assisted death, there should not be any room for carelessness, and liability must ensure that not only deliberate misconduct but negligent record keeping is subject to legal scrutiny. I want to put on the record the evidence we had from the British Journal of Nursing , which has documented the serious risks of poor record keeping in medical practice. That demonstrates how inadequate documentation contributes to clinical errors. I think the hon. Lady recognises that this is not just a matter of bureaucratic tidying-up. The principle is straightforward: if the decision to assist in ending a life is to be lawful, the documentation supporting it must be unimpeachable. Expanding liability to cover reckless documentation is entirely consistent with existing legal and professional standards in the UK medical profession.

• 19 Mar 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-seventh sitting) · Hansard source

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  Sorry, Mrs Harris. I do not appreciate the sense of impatience in the Committee; these are very important matters.

• 19 Mar 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-seventh sitting) · Hansard source

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  I beg to move amendment 446, in clause 29, page 18, line 9, at end insert— “(4) The Secretary of State must, by regulation, specify the data sets which must be made available by the Registrar General for England and Wales. (5) Any regulations made under subsection (4) are subject to the affirmative procedure.” This amendment requires the Secretary of State to specify in regulations the data sets which are to be made available by the Registrar General for England and Wales.

• 19 Mar 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-seventh sitting) · Hansard source

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  That is helpful and makes sense. The only justification for duplication must be that the duplication is only partial, which the Minister has just suggested it is. Not a complete overlap—some cases will fall into one category, but not into the other. I wonder if she could help us to understand with an example that would help the CPS when it makes its decisions about which offence to charge someone under—an example of an offence that would be illegal under this clause and not already illegal under the Suicide Act or the laws of homicide.

• 19 Mar 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-seventh sitting) · Hansard source

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  It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Members for Ashford and for Banbury. I entirely concur with their points, particularly those that derive from the expertise of the hon. Member for Ashford. This is a very important group of amendments, which concern what is in a sense the heart of the Bill—the management of the lethal drugs. The question of what drugs we are talking about remains open, which is a cause of deep concern to me, but whatever they happen to be, we need to make sure that the management— the regime of dispensing, transporting and prescribing —is safe. I will not reprise the details of all the amendments. Their purpose is to ensure a stricter, more transparent and safer regime for the management of the drugs. Amendment 521, which is in my name, would ensure that the regulations that we arrive at are laid before Parliament, and debated and approved by both Houses of Parliament. Amendment 485 in the name of the hon. Member for York Central would address the same issue. The amendments seek to address the dangerous absence of an adequate regulatory regime in the Bill for the lethal drugs and approved substances. Once again, significant questions are ignored in clause 28. Ministers will be given the power to make regulations for the prescription, dispensing, transportation, storage, handling and disposal of approved substances. The clause is envisaged as sufficient for an entire regulatory regime for approved substances. It is just 87 words. It is as if it is an afterthought—as, it seems, is the role of pharmacists, by the way. The regulations are subject to the negative procedure, which means they are highly unlikely to be debated at all or voted upon, for reasons given in my earlier complaints about the use of the negative procedure. Indeed, it is discretionary whether the regulations will be made at all. Last night, the Minister told us that the Government objected to the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency approving the drugs or substances in amendment 465, which I had tabled. He said: “The Government’s assessment of amendment 465 is that it would significantly impact the legal and operational delivery of the Bill. The Government anticipate that all substances used for assisted dying will have existing licences from the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency for other indications, but the amendment would require the approved substances to be licensed by the MHRA specifically for the purpose of assisted dying.” –– [ Official Report, Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill Public Bill Committee, 18 March 2025; c. 1224.] That was indeed the purpose of that amendment. If there is anxiety that I am somehow straying from the relevant clause and amendments, which I detect from Members who are clearly looking forward to their dinner, I do insist—[ Interruption. ]