Danny Kruger MP: speeches

Speeches

• 26 Feb 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Fifteenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I completely agree with what the hon. Gentleman is saying about the importance of getting the training right, but even if the training were right it might not be robust enough. The point was made earlier in the debate that there is a clause towards the end of the Bill about codes of practice that specifies that medical professionals must have regard for a code of practice that “may” be set out by the Secretary of State. Does he agree that that is a very thin defence to rely on? We are not talking about anything in primary or secondary legislation; it will be in a code of practice that may be laid down by the Secretary of State with no obligation or legal liability for a doctor to follow it. We are talking about some layers down from what needs to be in the Bill in terms of the assessments that should be conducted.

• 26 Feb 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Fifteenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I recognise that. I should certainly address you, Mrs Harris.

• 26 Feb 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Fifteenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I recognise that, but I repeat that by offering antidepressants, he is suggesting to his patients that it may well be the right thing for them to do. He puts in front of his patients a menu of options, with a degree of advice according to his expertise, but if assisted dying is on the menu, that is because assisted dying is regarded as something, as it were, that is healthy to eat. He would not put something on the menu that he did not think they should take. Everything on the menu is edible.

• 26 Feb 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Fifteenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  Last intervention, I promise—maybe. I do not mean it is my last intervention ever, just in this speech—no, in this minute! An amendment was tabled by the hon. Member for Richmond Park that would have replaced clause 3 altogether, and that would have been understood as a parallel system—which would be appropriate because we are discussing a new order of intervention, which I will not call a medical treatment—but we are not doing that. We are accepting the Mental Capacity Act. It is not a parallel process: it is one that builds on the foundation of the Mental Capacity Act in a way that already happens in other respects, as the Minister has described. It is a question of putting it in legislation or into a code of practice. I recognise his arguments, but will he please acknowledge that we are proposing to build on the Mental Capacity Act and enhance it in legislation to make it safer?

• 26 Feb 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Fifteenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I am absolutely sure that is right, and I am grateful to the hon. Lady for making that important point. For anybody, but particularly for the vulnerable and those in distress, as people are towards the end of their life, for those who have had a terrible diagnosis, and for those who feel a burden and recognise that the coming months might not be good for them or their family, of course the statement of this option has an implication—even if it is presented as neutrally as possible. It might well be received as a communication that the doctor is actually trying to say, “You are going to have a terrible death”, but does not want to say it out loud. It could be taken in all sorts of ways by patients.

• 26 Feb 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Fifteenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I hope that the hon. Member is not suggesting that all 600 would be averted by the Bill. He might be right that some would be, and I recognise that. However, the purpose of amendment 270 is to ensure that people who might be suicidal receive an assessment, whether they are inclined to apply for assisted death, if it is legal, or to take their own life in an unassisted way. If they expressed a wish under the clauses of the Bill to have an assisted death, they would have proper psychosocial assessment and proper steps would be taken to ask, if we are prepared to make this distinction, “Is it just that they are suicidal and not wanting an assisted death?” I find the distinction difficult to parse logically, but if that is the distinction that we are making, let us put it into the Bill and ensure that people are properly cared for in that very dangerous time after they get a terrible diagnosis. I would like to quote from the written evidence that we received from a member of the Pathfinders Neuromuscular Alliance, which is a user-led charity for those with muscle-weakening conditions such as muscular dystrophy. This person said: “I’ve been there, I’ve wanted to die, and I’ve been in the position where I would take that option if it was given to me”— not if it was not. Interestingly, he would have taken that option if it was given to him, rather than suggesting that he was going to take his own life anyway. The quote continues, “but looking back I can see I was depressed and now I’m so glad that I didn’t take that option.” At the moment, the Bill does not require anyone to explore these psychosocial factors, and although the person can be referred to a psychiatrist—and, if we go on to accept the amendment, we would ensure that they must be if the doctor concludes that there is doubt—I do want to make a point about referrals. There is an assumption that the doctor will refer the person to a psychiatrist, but that will only happen if they have done their assessment well. We are assuming that they will do the assessment well, but we have heard repeatedly that such assessments are often not done well. I welcome the coming amendment—amendment 6—that says that if the doctor concludes that there is doubt about capacity, they “must” refer. That would be a step forward, but it is not sufficient. Even the psychiatrist will only answer the question, “Is this person able to make a decision?” That does not address any of these other factors. In Oregon—we refer often to Oregon, and although this Bill is supposed to be the safest in the world, it is not as safe as Oregon in this respect—the doctors may refer the patient for counselling if the patient “may be suffering from a psychiatric or psychological disorder or depression causing impaired judgment”. To conclude on this point, psychosocial care is fundamental to good end-of-life care. Members of the Committee have said that palliative care and assisted dying can complement each other; this assessment should be part of that picture, and it needs to come before the first declaration, because once somebody has signed that declaration they are already on the pathway—and there will not be an obligation on them to receive palliative care advice either, because we rejected that amendment. Amendment 270 provides for people’s needs to be met at the first opportunity. Lastly, on the question of doctor-initiated conversations, I quote Professor Brassington, who submitted evidence to the Committee: “In normal medical practice, the patient approaches the medic with a problem, and the medic suggests possible courses of action, not all of which would have been considered by the patient. The patient permits further action. But it is implicit that the practitioner who makes the suggestions thinks them good, and the patient is entitled to think that the practitioner endorses them all.” In a normal scenario, the doctor would think about what is good for the patient. To raise an option is to endorse and encourage it, perhaps as one among a number of other options. It is to suggest that this is a good option—it might not be the one the doctor thinks is the best, but it is a good option for the patient; otherwise, they would not raise it. They can only make a recommendation for options that they consider would be appropriate to the situation.

• 26 Feb 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Fifteenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I am afraid that that seems to be the strong impression that many groups have. I will quote quickly from a submission that we have received from someone at the National Down Syndrome Policy Group, Fionn Crombie Angus. I am not sure whether Fionn has Down’s syndrome, or is perhaps a parent, but the point is a striking one, which we have not heard enough: “I do feel very sorry for the people who are suffering, but I think the people left behind, the relatives, will be scarred for life if they help people die. That is the main reason why I do not want the Assisted dying Bill to become law.” That is not specifically relevant, because we are not discussing whether the whole thing should happen, but it strikes me that there, from a member of the Down’s community, we have a point that goes to the heart of our discussion on the Bill: it is not all about the individual who is seeking an assisted death. More people are involved in the decision. I made a point in an earlier debate about relational autonomy, which is very significant. That particularly applies to this group of people, who will be making decisions in the context of their family and the people around them, including the doctor who is talking to them. That is why it is particularly important to have a wider set of expertise and advice around people with Down’s. My concern is that Bill, as drafted, thanks to the inclusion of clause 3 and its reference to the Mental Capacity Act, will assume consent and support people with Down’s receiving this intervention. It would have been best if we had accepted the amendments tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Reigate and the hon. Member for Bexleyheath and Crayford to reverse the burden of proof. Failing that, we need to ensure that the job is done properly. Amendment 368, tabled by my right hon. Friend the Member for East Hampshire, would address that point. Given the real concern that we have all discussed about the application of the Mental Capacity Act, it is important to have real expertise, time and attention on behalf of Down’s people with the role of an independent advocate. In particular, that should be someone who has expertise in end-of-life decisions for people with Down’s syndrome, which will be a small group of experts, so we might have to end up widening that, I am sorry to say. We need people with proper expertise. I think the point that my right hon. Friend the Member for North West Hampshire made about the interaction of the Bill with the Down Syndrome Act 2022 was absolutely right. My understanding is that he is right that it applies to authorities, but it strikes me that the purpose of the amendment 368 would be to insist that the provisions of the Act apply in the case of individuals as well. My right hon. Friend may be right that there could be complications, so it would be good to hear whether the Minister agrees with him that we should take this topic away, with the hon. Member for Spen Valley, and see whether the provisions in the amendment can be introduced at a later stage of the Bill or in statutory guidance. However, I would want to hear explicitly from the Minister that he is confident that what my right hon. Friend the Member for East Hampshire was trying to do when he tabled the amendment will be reflected properly at a later stage of the Bill. On that basis, I am happy not to press the amendment to a vote unless others feel strongly that we should proceed.

• 26 Feb 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Fifteenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I rise to speak to new clause 6, in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Solihull West and Shirley; to amendment 368, in the name of my right hon. Friend the Member for East Hampshire; to amendment 270, in the name of my right hon. Friend the Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison); and to amendment 278, in the name of the hon. Member for Wells and Mendip Hills. I will canter through them as quickly as I can. My concern about new clause 6, which specifies that an advance directive would be inapplicable in the case of assisted dying, is that, as we discussed briefly at a previous sitting, advance directives are currently about the refusal of treatment. That is what they exist to do. Under the new clause, as in the Mental Capacity Act 2005, the effect of an advance decision would be that “the specified treatment is not to be carried out or continued”. However, under clause 18, the doctor must be satisfied at the time that the lethal substance is provided that the patient has capacity. I do not think that the new clause is necessary; it is otiose or even nonsensical, because the Bill already assumes that the patient has capacity at the very end. [ Interruption. ] The hon. Member for Spen Valley agrees with that point. I invite my hon. Friend the Member for Solihull West and Shirley to consider whether he wants to press new clause 6 at all. On amendment 368, which relates to people with Down’s syndrome, I hear what my right hon. Friend the Member for North West Hampshire says. I strongly agree with him; I will make a couple of points and then respond to his suggestion. I look forward to the points from the hon. Member for Spen Valley. I do not say this in a carping spirit, but it is relevant that the National Down Syndrome Policy Group opened its submission with a series of complaints about the process. The group feels that the consultation process has been rushed: we have not had the usual 12 to 16-week public consultation. It talks about limited professional and affected population engagement in the course of the drafting of the Bill, and a lack of accessible consultation materials; I mention that not to revisit the debate that we had about the process, but because it is a bad start. In the group’s mind, it is a harbinger of how the Bill might operate, and I understand why it thinks that. The fact is that in our society we have persistent and entrenched discrimination against people with learning disabilities, particularly people with Down’s syndrome. There is a fundamental assumption that is too widely shared that the lives of people with Down’s are worth less than others’. One sees that, I am afraid to say, in the prevalence of prenatal screening and termination of Down’s babies. Yet we know from research that the lives of people with Down’s are as fulfilling, joyful, positive and constructive as everybody else’s. The most marvellous fact is that 99% of people with Down’s syndrome say that they are happy with their life, which I am sure is more than on this Committee and probably more than in the general population. As a society, we serially misunderstand and degrade the value of people with Down’s syndrome. They are victims of the system, particularly in healthcare. People with intellectual disabilities died at rates three to four times higher than the general population during the covid crisis, often with inappropriately applied “do not resuscitate” orders put on them. The representation from the National Down Syndrome Policy Group was signed by 50 organisations, all representing people with Down’s syndrome, so it is pretty widespread. Expert advice is that it is very difficult to spot coercion when dealing with people with Down’s syndrome. It is very difficult to ensure that one is getting informed consent. A point that has been made, in particular by the Down’s Syndrome Research Foundation, is that a discussion with someone with Down’s can often feel to them as if a suggestion is being made. That is particularly relevant to the whole question of a doctor’s suggestion, which we will come on to—well, we are on it now. Certainly the whole matter of how a person with Down’s syndrome receives information needs to be taken into account in any work that is done.

• 26 Feb 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Fifteenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I am not talking about the withdrawal of treatment, which I recognise is covered by the same legal framework—particularly the Mental Capacity Act—as other healthcare interventions, because that concerns the withdrawal of a healthcare intervention. Is it the Government’s view that the administration of assisted dying under this Bill would be a healthcare treatment?

• 26 Feb 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Fifteenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  As I understand it, the objection to the amendment is on the basis that it sets up an alternative framework for other healthcare decisions. Is it the Minister’s view that assisted dying is a healthcare treatment?

• 26 Feb 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Fifteenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I am grateful to the hon. Member for highlighting that. I disagree with the BMA—I think that its idea of balance is actually an incoherence in the Bill. I note that the BMA elsewhere has suggested that assisted dying should not be regarded as a normal healthcare option or treatment. It is itself a victim of the confusion that is reflected in the Bill about whether or not this is healthcare. As I said, the disapplication of Montgomery in clause 4(1) suggests that it is not actually healthcare treatment and should not be managed in the same way as everything else.

• 26 Feb 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Fifteenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  The clear implication of the amendment is that if the patient requests to know what can be done to end their life, that is an invitation to raise the option of assisted dying; if they ask the doctor about what can be done to deal with the pain, symptoms and illness, they should be offered information on that. I am afraid that it comes back to the distinction between its being a healthcare option and not being a healthcare option. Does the hon. Lady agree that the evidence from Australia is clear that the minute there is a law like this, there will be challenges to the safeguards? Each safeguard will be seen as a barrier to a human right and a barrier to access. That is what the Australians told us.

• 26 Feb 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Fifteenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  The hon. Gentleman is right that people are well aware of this topic, and they would be quickly aware of the option if the Bill became law. Without getting into the question of the bogus polling that claims to demonstrate public support, I would simply observe— [ Interruption. ] Well, it demonstrates support for something called “assisted dying”, but if we drill into the data and ask people explicitly what they mean, we find that they often mean palliative care. The more that people understand what is proposed in this Bill, the less they like it. Actually, other polling shows that there is a majority against the provisions of this Bill, but let us not banter polling around here. We make the law, and we are not responsive to polls, are we? There is a challenge about making advance notices, and my strong suggestion is that we do not support amendment 278. I had better leave it there; I think we have all had enough of me—me included.

• 26 Feb 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Fifteenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  It is very important that we do have psychiatrists involved. In that sense, the addition of the panel may be welcome, although I regret that it is replacing the judicial stage—but, crucially, it comes right at the end of the process, and as I understand it, there will be no obligation on the panel to meet the patient. That is in no way a psychiatric assessment, let alone one at the right moment.

• 26 Feb 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Fifteenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I think my hon. Friend is suggesting that a doctor should suggest assisted dying as an option in every case, because if he is suggesting that a reasonable patient would want to know this towards the end of their life, he is saying that every dying patient should be told, “What about assisted dying?” That is a very concerning suggestion. The question is: how would a doctor decide when or when not to make this suggestion? I will go back to Montgomery and make this point as clearly as I can. The Bill accepts that assisted dying is not an ordinary medical treatment, which is why I pressed the Minister on this question. Clause 4(1) disapplies the Montgomery case law, which requires, as part of informed consent, that the patient be informed of all appropriate options. Having conceded that assisted dying is not an ordinary medical treatment, the objection to a prohibition on doctors raising it makes little sense. It is true that having such a prohibition would be unlike any other medical treatment, but the Bill has already crossed the Rubicon of saying that assisted dying is different from all other medical treatments, because in clause 4(1) it says that doctors are not obliged to offer it. It is either the case that they must offer it or they must not. There is no grey area. If they do not have to suggest it in any case, that implies that assisted dying is unnecessary in all cases and there no cases where it should be used. I would like to hear from any Member who has an answer to this: in what circumstances might it be appropriate for a doctor to suggest assisted dying?

• 26 Feb 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Fifteenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  On the suggestion that people will not know that this option is on the table, who are we talking about in those circumstances? I suggest we would be talking about people who are extremely marginalised, and I would be very concerned about a doctor suggesting an option to them. There may be a tiny number of people who would not know that this option is legal, but I am afraid it would be very widely known the minute that it is law.

• 26 Feb 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Fourteenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  rose—

• 26 Feb 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Fourteenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  The hon. Lady is absolutely right. It is an interesting irony of the Bill that it is presented as the free choice of individuals, but actually it imposes all sorts of obligations and repercussions on other people—the very term “assisted” conveys that. Many other people will be affected by the decision to take an assisted death. She is right that it would be very helpful for the doctors to be confident that they have done their job properly because they have a clear list of communications they are expected to make. My understanding is that doctors are indemnified against legal challenge in consequence of decisions they make around this; that is an interesting point and one that I am uncomfortable with, but we will come to that later in the Bill. Leaving lawsuits out of it, from the point of view of the doctor’s professional conduct and their peace of mind, it would be very helpful for them to have it clearly specified what information they are required to convey. I am grateful for Members’ interventions, and I appreciate the good faith and good sense that has been spoken, but I have not yet heard any reason for objecting to this amendment, other than the possible question of its being otiose and not necessary. That is not a sufficient reason to object to an amendment. We should not be objecting simply on drafting grounds. There can be tidying-up exercises later if there is repetition. I have not heard objections to the content of the amendment, and I would very much welcome Members’ support.

• 26 Feb 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Fourteenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  It is unlikely that I would ever vote for an assisted dying law but, if we are going to have one, I want to make it as safe as possible, which we all want. On those terms, in the spirit of a Bill that is going to pass, why not include these specific pieces of information? The hon. Lady says that, while it would not make the Bill more dangerous, it would overcomplicate it. Again, how does it overcomplicate it to add a few clauses specifying information that must be clearly communicated?

• 26 Feb 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Fourteenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  Chris Whitty made the same point that the hon. Gentleman has just made: that there would be knock-on effects and that the Mental Capacity Act works very well currently. Does the hon. Gentleman acknowledge that Chris Whitty himself misrepresented the Mental Capacity Act in the evidence he gave to the Committee? He had to write to us subsequently to clarify his comment, and his clarification contradicted the hon. Gentleman’s implication that the Mental Capacity Act has different thresholds for different levels of decision. Does the hon. Gentleman acknowledge that it does not? The Act has one threshold: capacity as it defines it. Some doctors may have longer conversations than others depending on the severity of the case, but the threshold is the same—Chris Whitty misrepresented it.

• 26 Feb 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Fourteenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  There are huge challenges around the definition of terminal illness, as we have already acknowledged—but if the right hon. Lady thinks that somebody who is terminally ill should be allowed to jump off a bridge or out of a window without anybody saying, “Wrestle them back,” she should say so. We think that, whether someone has capacity or is in their right mind or not, they should not end their own life. That is the settled view of this country. That is what the law determines. Currently, it is illegal to help someone to do that. We are proposing to change that, to enable people to help somebody to do that in a medical setting. The implication of clause 3 is very clear: if one has a settled wish, ending one’s own life is something that we regard as acceptable. It will be very difficult to apply the principles of national suicide prevention when we have acknowledged that suicidal people have capacity. I will leave that point—it is not receiving a great echo of affirmation—but I have not heard any objection to it, other than a lot of head shaking.

• 26 Feb 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Fourteenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  Sorry—remind me of the detail of the amendment.

• 26 Feb 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Fourteenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I challenge the hon. Lady, and I would welcome her response to this: we clearly can specify some things that can be done, which is what my hon. Friend the Member for Runnymede and Weybridge has done in half a page with amendment 50, which clarifies explicitly what information the patient should receive and what they should properly understand. How does including this list of pieces of information make the Bill more dangerous for patients?

• 26 Feb 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Fourteenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  By that logic, the safest, clearest Bill would be one that simply authorised an assisted death without any of these checks whatsoever. My right hon. Friend made the point that this amendment requires the doctor to discuss with a patient all the implications of their death. That is perfectly appropriate—in fact, if that is not being done at some stage in the process, and if that is not clear in the Bill, it absolutely should be. Otherwise, how can we be sure that the person is making a settled, informed decision, with all considerations taken on board? I am sorry if that imposes a little extra burden on the doctor. One of the great challenges of the Bill is that, if we are to do it properly and genuinely make it a Bill that is strong in its safeguards, a whole lot of people will have to do a whole lot of work. There will be a huge demand on all parts of the public sector. This is required, I am afraid. I do not accept that the content of the amendment is either already in the Bill or implied in it. There might be some remote piece of GMC guidance that touches on this, which we would hope is properly applied, and I appreciate the point about embroidery. Nevertheless, this is not embroidery; this is upholstery—it is necessary for the Bill to be strong.

• 26 Feb 2025 · Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Fourteenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I really want someone to explain this point to me: how can it make it more unsafe for patients to state the safeguards explicitly? How can it possibly make it harder, or more dangerous, if we specify what—as the hon. Gentleman said—is good practice currently, which the best doctors already do? I greatly respect him and his medical practice, but is he really saying that every doctor conforms perfectly to the GMC guidance? There are obviously clear problems with the way in which some doctors operate, and this is uncharted territory. Surely for the sake of doctors, as well as patients, it would be appropriate to specify explicitly how they should conduct these assessments, what communications they should make and what patients should be properly informed of. I cannot see how that makes it more dangerous.