Clive Betts MP: speeches

Speeches

• 10 Jun 2025 · Football Governance Bill [ Lords ] (Sixth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I will make just one more point—I think it is important that we understand precisely what this means. Clause 33 talks about an owner or club having a responsibility to notify the regulator. Surely that does not mean that nobody else could notify the regulator, if relevant information came to them. Could they then pass it on for the regulator to look at?

• 10 Jun 2025 · Football Governance Bill [ Lords ] (Sixth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I will contribute to the debate.

• 10 Jun 2025 · Football Governance Bill [ Lords ] (Sixth sitting) · Hansard source

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  Will the Minister give way?

• 10 Jun 2025 · Football Governance Bill [ Lords ] (Fifth sitting) · Hansard source

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  This is a serious point, because football is about our communities. It reflects what goes on in our communities and tries to improve it. Football has a very good record of tackling racism in this country, right from the top, with the Football Association and the leagues, through to the clubs. Young kids walk on the pitch and there are “kick racism out of football” banners, and football has done good work on homophobia as well. Is the shadow Minister saying that all those matters should be put to a club’s fans in a referendum, or would we expect a club to do those things as a matter of good practice?

• 10 Jun 2025 · Football Governance Bill [ Lords ] (Fifth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I am still not quite sure why my amendments would cause so many problems. I understand the difficulty where a club does not actually own the ground but leases it, but the amendment is about security of tenure. There does not have to be ownership; it could be a secure lease, as the English Football League requires, for a 20-year period. That is implied by the amendment. I was not quite sure what the Minister was saying about how the review by the Law Commission and implementation by MHCLG Ministers would secure the position for football clubs, and what else is being looked at in terms of the planning framework. Is she able to say any more on those points to get on the record what further safeguards might be in place?

• 10 Jun 2025 · Football Governance Bill [ Lords ] (Fifth sitting) · Hansard source

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  It is a pleasure to be back with you in the Chair, Sir Jeremy. This might be termed the Dejphon Chansiri clause—though there are a number of those as we go through the Bill, and they could also apply to other owners of football clubs who have over the years behaved in ways that we might find unacceptable. Within the Bill—and credit to my hon. Friend the Minister for this—there are clear requirements for clubs wanting to move grounds to properly consult and demonstrate that there are good footballing reasons to do so. There will occasionally be good reasons, when clubs should move as it is in their commercial and footballing interests to do so. The problem with the Bill as it stands, however, which I have talked to my hon. Friend about on a number of occasions—she is probably fed up of hearing me on the subject—is where the owner has divested the ground separate from ownership of the club. The ownership of the ground is often therefore in a different place and with a different company. It is often, as in the case of Sheffield Wednesday, owned by the same person as the club, but in a different format, so the club could be sold but could be left with no ground. There probably would not be many people who would want to buy a club in that situation, but we can see the possibilities for owners who do not have the best intentions to do things that are not acceptable. That has been starkly illustrated in the last two weeks, as supporters at Hillsborough have got angrier and angrier with the chairman and he has now gone on record on social media to say, “If you keep on protesting, I can find better things to do with this ground and make more money by building a supermarket or housing”. He has actually put that in writing and said it, so I think we have to cover off those situations. With Sheffield Wednesday, I think the club has a lease on the ground and he would be legally challenged if he tried to do that, but the fact is that owners will try many things to maximise their personal financial interests. Coming back to the content and intention of the Bill, it is right we are going to have a licensing system; we will come on to that in more detail in due course. The intention is that to get a licence, the owner has to show that they are a fit and proper person and demonstrate that they can run the club financially. If it is proper that the owner has to show that they have the financial resources to run the club, surely they need to show that they have a ground to play on. This amendment is almost as simple as that. The English Football League rules as they are partly cover this issue, because the EFL requires clubs to demonstrate they have the 20-year use of a ground as part of their conditions. There is an overlap between what the regulator’s powers are going to be and what the leagues do, but we want to make sure there are no gaps and that we cover off those with bad intentions. I am sure Mr Chansiri has the best of intentions—perhaps for himself and his family, I hasten to add—but nevertheless it is also true of clubs like Derby and Charlton and others, and we have seen in the past the sad case of Wimbledon, having to move halfway across the country because the owners got rid of their ground, Plough Lane. We saw Brighton wandering homeless around the country for many years when the Goldstone Ground, which I remember going to several times, was sold for a supermarket there. Mr Chansiri is obviously following in those footsteps. That left the club in an awful situation. Let us not go there again; let us anticipate what might go wrong and put measures in place to stop it. That is what I am trying to do with my amendments. Even if the Minister cannot accept the precise wording, I hope that she will, at least, understand and recognise the problems that could exist, which need addressing at this stage.

• 10 Jun 2025 · Football Governance Bill [ Lords ] (Fifth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I thank the Minister for that reply; it is helpful in moving the discussion in the right direction. I appreciate that she cannot commit on behalf of another Department and other Ministers, but she has indicated that work is going on in this area. Again, it would be helpful if she could encourage her colleagues in the MHCLG to come forward with that further information before we get to Report. If they are going to write to us about the other issue, they could write to us about this as well. It would be extremely helpful if that could be done, but I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

• 10 Jun 2025 · Football Governance Bill [ Lords ] (Fifth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I beg to move amendment 14, in schedule 4, page 98, line 20, at end insert— “(d) the home ground threshold requirement (see paragraph 4A)” See explanatory statement for Amendment 15.

• 10 Jun 2025 · Football Governance Bill [ Lords ] (Fifth sitting) · Hansard source

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  The hon. Member raises a worthwhile point for consideration. It may be that in the situation of Reading, if it had not changed ownership, the club would have gone into administration, because it would have had no income coming in because it could not play in the competition. That is entirely possible. It is possible that the chairman could just walk away and say, “Right, I am dissolving this organisation—I am off.” That would not be acceptable for fans. That is why I said at the beginning that it is a complicated legal issue, and I am not saying that I have the only solution here. What I am saying is that there is a problem that does not currently appear to have a solution in the Bill. It is a problem. I keep going back to the situation at Sheffield Wednesday. We have a situation where an owner is running out of money. We do not even know where his money comes from. It clearly does not come from his companies, because his companies are loss-making. Is he being supported by his family? Is the Thai Union Group providing the money? Is the family trust providing the money? The regulator will have the power to find the source of funding, which might be quite interesting in some cases. We had a situation at Leeds a few years ago where we did not even know who owned the club. Getting that information on the record and giving the regulator powers to find out who actually owns the club, what the source of funding is and whether the beneficial owner is the same as the owner who claims to be the owner are important issues, but then we get to the point where the owner is found to be not fit and proper. What actually happens? I do not know the answer. I have read the Bill many times and debated it many times, and still do not know the answer. There has to be an answer.

• 10 Jun 2025 · Football Governance Bill [ Lords ] (Fifth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I beg to move amendment 16, in schedule 5, page 100, line 19, at end insert— “(e) an Asset of Community Value condition.” This amendment adds the requirement to attach an Asset of Community Value condition to each club operating licence.

• 10 Jun 2025 · Football Governance Bill [ Lords ] (Fifth sitting) · Hansard source

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  On that basis, with the Minister going as far as she can this morning, I am happy not to press the amendment. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

• 10 Jun 2025 · Football Governance Bill [ Lords ] (Fifth sitting) · Hansard source

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  The Minister often completely convinces me—on this occasion, she goes a little way towards being convincing. I want to read what MHCLG is going to say. In the end, it is not how we do it, but what we achieve in terms of the safety and security of grounds for the fans. That is what this is about. If what MHCLG is going to do moves us in that direction, as the Minister indicates it will, I am happy to await that correspondence from it before pushing this further. I hope that we can get a response from MHCLG Ministers before Report—if the Minister could encourage them to write in that time period, it would be helpful.

• 10 Jun 2025 · Football Governance Bill [ Lords ] (Fifth sitting) · Hansard source

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  They would, and therefore the club disappears. No one wants to see that. The whole purpose of the Bill is to stop clubs disappearing, to stop what happened to Bury, and so there is a gap in the legislation, because what happens in that situation? It nearly happened at Reading—the club nearly disappeared, but in the end it was a last-minute sale. If the owner had not sold it at the last minute, however, the EFL has no powers to deal with it, and the regulator will not either. The regulator has the power to say: “You shouldn’t be owning the club. You shouldn’t have a licence to operate the club, because of what you have done, you haven’t got the funds, your source of funds is inappropriate”—all those things—but then what happens? I am saying to the Minister that the whole intention of the Bill is to ensure that the clubs that fans have supported for years, for generations—for communities, it is their club—do not disappear, go out of business or lose their place in the competition they are playing in. Clubs might get relegated, that is fine, but they should not lose their place because they have an owner who is not fit and proper, and does not meet the test. We have to find way of dealing with this, which the Bill does not do as drafted.

• 10 Jun 2025 · Football Governance Bill [ Lords ] (Fifth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I beg to move amendment 7, in schedule 5, page 100, line 19, at end insert “(e) an enforcement condition.” See explanatory statement for Amendment 8.

• 10 Jun 2025 · Football Governance Bill [ Lords ] (Fifth sitting) · Hansard source

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  On a general point, when we talk about fans and fan groups, who defines who they are and the relevant ones? That is a really important point. Coming back to our club, Sheffield Wednesday, we have more than 20 different fan groups. That is also true of other clubs. Talk to the EFL, because it often struggles to engage or know who actually represents fans, as opposed to two or three people who have got together to name themselves as a group. How are we going to deal with that? As fans become an integral part of the process, who decides who the relevant groups are?

• 10 Jun 2025 · Football Governance Bill [ Lords ] (Fifth sitting) · Hansard source

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  Is the Minister saying that the regulator has the power to direct that someone else should be in charge of running a club and having operation of the licence that the club needs to compete in the competition, even if the owner is not a fit and proper person?

• 10 Jun 2025 · Football Governance Bill [ Lords ] (Fifth sitting) · Hansard source

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  My hon. Friend is absolutely right. No one wants to see the regulator come in and compel clubs to change ownership. That is not the intention. Encouraging owners to behave better so that that intervention is not necessary is of course the ideal outcome, but history would teach us that not every power or potential use of power will compel some owners to behave properly. This is about what happens when they do not. The whole purpose of these arrangements in the Bill is to stop the Burys happening again, or to stop the situation at Reading getting worse than it did. At this stage, I do not see where the power is for the regulator to do anything other than to say that someone is not a fit and proper person.

• 10 Jun 2025 · Football Governance Bill [ Lords ] (Fifth sitting) · Hansard source

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  Assets of community value have been looked at in a number of different ways over time. Some clubs are already in this situation because their fans have moved to do this. That is true at Sheffield Wednesday, where fans moved some time ago to have the ground designated as an asset of community value. It does not provide a complete safeguard against an owner, who wants to cause mischief and upset for fans and the club, transferring the ground for another purpose, but it provides more of a safeguard than simply having it as a ground without any particular protection, as is currently the case. The Minister referred to what the MHCLG might be doing in this area on the rules around planning. Is she prepared to look at using assets of community value to give further protection and to comfort fans that football grounds hold a different status to other assets that owners, from time to time, might want to change for another purpose?

• 10 Jun 2025 · Football Governance Bill [ Lords ] (Fifth sitting) · Hansard source

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  In further debate, we will come back to the issues of owners and directors, to which the Minister referred. As I said at the beginning, this was an exploratory amendment for discussion of the whole issue, which is important, but with her reassurance. at this point I will not press the amendments to a vote. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

• 10 Jun 2025 · Football Governance Bill [ Lords ] (Fifth sitting) · Hansard source

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  This is actually quite an important issue—not that other things are not important—because it seems to me that it is at the heart of what happens when we try to get proper ownership into football clubs. It is a complicated legal issue, so I am not expecting the Minister immediately to agree with every word in my amendment, but I thank Fair Game for having a look at this and trying to come up with a solution. The amendment relates to the case of Reading, a club that have had real difficulties recently: they had an owner who was not interested—they almost walked away from the club—and the EFL was in a difficult place because it eventually had evidence about behaviours, I think in China, that were not acceptable and meant that the owner was no longer a “fit and proper person”. What happens in that situation? No one who is not a fit and proper person may run a club, so the club then cannot play in any competition it is currently in. That is the point that Reading almost got to. In the end, a sale was made just a few days before the EFL deadline day, which saved the club and allowed it to continue. But if the owner had been completely capricious, and had just decided, “It’s my club and I’m not selling, so what?” the club would have disappeared, and there is nothing that the EFL or anyone else could have done. I am not sure the Bill says anything about what happens to a club if the current owner or owners were previously deemed to be fit and proper persons, but are no longer. Such persons cannot have a licence. Without a licence, the club cannot play in the competition. There is nothing that the regulator can do, as it stands, if the owner refuses to sell and give up their ownership. Where does that leave the club? I am trying to find a way that gives the regulator powers—perhaps of appointing trustees—to enable the club to continue to operate with a licence in the competition they are playing in.

• 10 Jun 2025 · Nuclear Power: Investment · Hansard source

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  I will not say “happy birthday” to you again, Mr Speaker; perhaps we can arrange to sing it next time so that we do not all have to repeat it. The Secretary of State’s statement is welcome. The other welcome news today is the Government’s commitment to £460 million of investment at Sheffield Forgemasters. That is primarily for defence nuclear, but it also provides extra capacity for civil nuclear. There is a bit of concern about Rolls-Royce’s link with Czechia, so will my right hon. Friend commit to using forgings from Sheffield Forgemasters in the first-of-its-type SMR in this country and build the supply chain so that the vast majority of jobs are provided for British workers?

• 5 Jun 2025 · Football Governance Bill [Lords] (Fourth sitting) · Hansard source

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  With new clause 2, tabled in my name, we come back to the other key issue in the Bill, aside from distribution: how clubs operate, how owners have in some cases badly operated them in the past, and how we can do more to help to control such situations. The issue of operating licences is, then, absolutely key. Before anyone gets too worried, I should say that I have not been collaborating with the Lib Dems, although their new clause is very similar. Perhaps we have both been talking to Fair Game, an excellent organisation that has been trying to work with clubs and fans to improve the regulation and operation of football clubs. The simple aim of new clause 2 is to ensure that the regulator provides help when it is needed. Premier League clubs are not going to need help and Championship clubs should not need help. The EFL says that clubs in Leagues One and Two are already required, under the EFL’s regulations, to provide the vast majority of the information that the regulator will need anyway, so they are doing so as a matter of course. The new clause would probably apply only to some National League clubs. The support may not be financial support; in some ways, for the relevant clubs, training and supporting staff is the key issue. There may not be anyone in the club with a working knowledge of some of the complications and the legalities of the legislation so, to avoid the club getting into difficulties, the new clause would require the regulator, in those circumstances, to help those clubs, in a reasonable and proportionate way, with the requirements of the licence conditions.

• 5 Jun 2025 · Football Governance Bill [Lords] (Fourth sitting) · Hansard source

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  Absolutely. I accept that the Government have been listening to the arguments—not all Governments do, but this one clearly have. That is an important step forward. One of my worries, which we will look at further when we come to later clauses on the distribution of funding, the effect of parachute payments and the role that they may play and for how long, is that unless we give the regulator slightly stricter time periods, we could get to the end of this Parliament and find that nothing has changed.

• 5 Jun 2025 · Football Governance Bill [Lords] (Fourth sitting) · Hansard source

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  Briefly, I think we are going back to a very similar discussion to the one that we have just had, but would the Minister expect—without this going on the face of the Bill—the regulator to consult fans, in particular the Football Supporters’ Association? It has done a brilliant job. It was party to the fan-led Crouch review, and it has provided a great deal of assistance in framing this legislation. I hope that the association would be seen as part of the consultation process when the regulator comes to do that.

• 5 Jun 2025 · Football Governance Bill [Lords] (Fourth sitting) · Hansard source

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  There we go!