Caroline Johnson MP: speeches

Speeches

• 7 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Second sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q I agree with you on that. To what extent will the Bill help to resolve, or at least alleviate, the problem of children vaping? Matthew Shanks: At the moment, there is a vacuum around an understanding of what vaping is and what it can and cannot do. I cannot talk to the health aspects, because I am not a health expert, but it is something that is not clear. Because it is not clear, that is enabling children to engage in it and parents to encourage children to engage in it. There are instances of parents giving it as a reward because it is not a cigarette and they therefore see it as being “safe”. I think the Bill will help with that. What is really important is the messaging and the education around the harm that vaping can do to young people and to adults as well. We need to bring it back to the original reason why vaping came about in the first place, which, as far as I was concerned, was about ceasing smoking. Lots of my friends took up vaping to cease smoking. They do not vape any more or smoke, but lots of children vape who would never contemplate smoking.

• 7 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Second sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q We have heard a bit today about the marketing of vapes and the flexibility of industry to maintain its market of nicotine-addicted people. Do you think that the Bill is sufficiently flexible? For example, we have seen nicotine pouches becoming more popular with children, and we have started to see them advertised in bright colours and flavours, such as groovy grape and witty spearmint, and in the same patterns that we saw with vaping, which have been described today. Is the Bill future-proof enough to stop those sorts of activities? Professor Steve Turner: The Royal College has 24,000 paediatricians in the UK and overseas, so we are a substantial college. We strongly support the Bill as it is. We believe that it provides the right protection for the most vulnerable members of our society—our children, who are our future—and that it is proportionate. We think the Bill as it stands addresses all the concerns that you just raised, and others.

• 7 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Second sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q Can I ask you about the training available to staff and shops who are being asked to comply with this? We have heard of Challenge 25, where people are told, “If you think someone’s under 25, challenge them just to be on the safe side, because they might be under 18.”, and I have been challenged myself right to the age of 38 on such issues. In the event that someone makes a mistake, and you think they are reputable and genuine and it was just a mistake, and you want to provide them with training, is there training in how to recognise someone’s age? We are not going to just ask whether someone looks young; we are going to be starting to challenge people under 30, or under 35. It can be more challenging to identify how old people in middle age are compared with younger people. Is there any training available for people, in the event that they make mistakes? Lord Michael Bichard: This is not complex legislation. One of the points we want to make on behalf of trading standards is that we are used to doing this sort of stuff. We are used to doing it for tobacco and illicit cigarettes. It is not complicated. The main issue is, as you say, age identification. People are increasingly used to having to provide some identity or proof of age for all sorts of things. In terms of training retailers, that is about it: if they have any doubts, they need to seek identity.

• 7 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Second sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q Okay, but you do not have specific evidence that compares flavours. Say the popular flavours are cherry and raspberry—you do not have anything that says which is safer. Professor Sanjay Agrawal: No.

• 7 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Second sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q My final question is about the verification measures and Challenge 25, which we have heard has been successful in ensuring that children under the age of 18 are not sold such products. I had a look at the evidence for how good people are at establishing how old somebody is. We are often told, “Don’t try to guess someone’s age—you can get yourself into a lot of hot water by doing that.” The research I found online showed that we are remarkably not very good at establishing how old somebody is. We are quite good at establishing if someone is of a similar age to ourselves, but beyond that, it is not that easy. What information do you have on the research in that field? Professor Linda Bauld: I will speak just to the Scottish scheme. As we have heard from the previous witnesses, Challenge 25 is quite easy to implement. It is widely used and highly effective. The benefit of Challenge 25 is that you have got people who are obviously a number of years older than the legal age of sale for the product they are buying, be it alcohol or another product, and it includes anybody who looks roughly around that age, so asking to check age verification is actually very effective. As the regulations in this Bill are taken forward across the four nations, ensuring that we have robust age verification as part of the scheme could be effective.

• 7 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Second sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q One of my concerns is that it is quite difficult to identify how old somebody is. People can get themselves into trouble with the law by not being very good at identifying someone’s age, and it is going to get more difficult as this goes forward. Moving away from the age of sale, how will the licensing scheme affect retailers, particularly small retailers? Inga Becker-Hansen: In terms of the licensing scheme for smaller retailers, it is more about the administrative burden that there will be, and the cost of that. Smaller retailers may not have as much capacity with regard to the licensing scheme. It is quite difficult to comment on it at this point, because we do not know the full detail. If the licensing scheme were to bundle alcohol and vapes and tobacco, or if they are separate or together—those are all the kinds of questions your smaller retailers will have to take on board with regard to the licensing schemes and what they can and cannot provide for their customers. It will affect revenue for smaller retailers, so it is something to bear in mind. There will be increased bureaucracy and increased costs. We would welcome the opportunity to discuss and contribute to the design of the scheme, but we do not know the full detail, so it is quite difficult to comment on how it will or will not affect smaller retailers specifically.

• 7 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Second sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q Thank you and welcome. I reiterate that I am a member of the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health. My first question is about the medical harms of vaping. We know that these products are relatively new and that it took quite a long time to establish how harmful smoking was. What do we know about harms that vaping may cause to children who have never smoked? Professor Steve Turner: I will answer that question. Thank you for accommodating me; I have flown a long way. I thank Professor Bauld for reshuffling the order of the panels. I am passionate about this issue, and I am grateful to be able to contribute. Vaping is harmful for children, and the evidence is accumulating. Vapes contain nicotine, which is harmful to us as human beings. You have heard previously from Matthew Shanks of the Secondary Headteacher Reference Group about the impact of vaping on children’s education. There are evidences of children coming to harm from vaping devices bursting into flames. There is a lot of talk about something called popcorn lung, which fortunately is very rare, but it is very serious and can affect children who vape. Collectively, there is already a substantial burden of evidence that vaping is harmful for children.

• 7 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Second sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q I want to ask you about flavours, given your experience of people who are trying to quit. There has been some debate about restricting flavours, and how flavours entice children but, perhaps, help adults. When I first met somebody from the industry, I asked them about flavours and they told me that when somebody uses another quitting aid to stop smoking, they will use the quitting aid, then stop the quitting aid, and then they are not using any products, buying anything or making any revenue for the companies. However, when somebody has a choice of flavours, they do not just give up smoking; they transfer their addiction to another product, which they then to continue to buy because it is enjoyable to vape these different flavours and to choose different flavours at different times if they get bored. Is that something that you see in your clinical practice? How do vapes compare with nicotine patches, gums or other inhalation devices that just provide nicotine in terms of, first, giving up smoking and, secondly, persisting with a new habit? Professor Sanjay Agrawal: There are a few things to unpack there. First, a lot of people who smoke and who want to give up use vapes because they have tried other products and have not been able to give up, be that nicotine replacement therapy or tablet pharmacotherapy. One thing those people want to get away from is the taste of tobacco, and having flavours allows them to do that. Actually, other NRT products, such as gums and lozenges, also have fruit flavours—it is not just vapes. Flavours are an integral part of helping people to get away from smoking. Equally, as we know, flavours attract young people to smoking, so it is really important that we limit the number of them. However, the flavour descriptors are perhaps more important: I think we need to make them bland. The Bill, as it stands, provides powers to restrict all sorts of elements related to vaping, such as the number of flavours, the descriptors, the packaging, the appeal and the advertising. Having bland descriptors and eliminating flavours that we know are popular among children would be really helpful.

• 7 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Second sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q I have one final quick question on detectors. Some schools have tried detector devices to pick up vape vapour that is not picked up by smoke detectors. What are your thoughts on those? Are they effective and have they been useful to schools? Matthew Shanks: Children are very clever, and they will find a way round. On the other hand, far be it from me to sit here as a teacher and talk about funding, but vape detectors would cost money. Smoke detectors are in schools anyway, so it is far simpler. I think children will find a way around it. We saw a real decrease in cigarette smoking with the advertising and marketing. I have been teaching for 30 years, and we saw a decrease in that, but you cannot win an argument at the moment with parents or children talking about the dangers of vaping. That is the hardest thing.

• 7 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Second sitting) · Hansard source

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  Yes; what are the challenges in implementing the new regulations? Inga Becker-Hansen: One of the key challenges of age verification is this idea of the rolling age for the smoke-free generation. At this point it is quite identifiable, with those under the regulation being 15, but in 30 years’ time if you have someone who is 45 versus 44 from the date of January 2009, it may lead to ID for each sale of a given product, if that makes sense. This will eventually lead to potential issues. Points of sale can be a flashpoint for violence and abuse against retail and shop workers, so it is a real concern for retailers that that could be an issue in the future in terms of the smoke-free generation and the ageing of that generation. We would also like to highlight that a digital ID could possibly make things easier. The Department for Business and Trade is promoting the use of digital ID for alcohol consumption. That could potentially be included as a means of age verification to make the process easier for the average consumer and member of the public.

• 7 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Second sitting) · Hansard source

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  Thank you, that is a really helpful answer. We know that vapes are very difficult to dispose of and to recycle.

• 7 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Second sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q My final question is about the awareness of public spaces legislation. You are creating the powers to restrict people’s ability to smoke and vape outside in places that you have chosen reasonably sensibly, but you could extend them. If you do extend them, how will you ensure that people know so that they are not inadvertently criminalised? If the Secretary of State wakes up in the morning and decides that he or she, depending on who it is at the time, wants to change this public spaces legislation, they can very easily do so, so how will we make sure people know that has been done? Andrew Gwynne: Well, we cannot easily do so. The powers in the Bill mean that we have a statutory duty to consult. As we have already heard, Wales already covers the areas that we wish to consult on in respect of England. Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales will have their own consultations. But as far as England is concerned, the Government have been very clear that, should this Bill pass, we will consult on implementing smoke-free areas outdoors around children’s playgrounds and schools and outside hospitals. Given the media interest and speculation over the summer as to outdoor areas to which the Government might extend the outdoor restrictions, including hospitality, it would not be possible for any Government to just wake up one day and decide they were going to extend these measures to x, y and z and for nobody to notice. It would be on the front cover of every newspaper and all over X, Facebook, Bluesky and other social media. People would be very aware of a Government’s intentions to extend outdoor smoking and we would be under a statutory duty to consult and to pursue secondary legislation, which is ultimately subject to a vote of the House.

• 7 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Second sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q I am not sure that I completely understand your argument, because the rise in age of being able to smoke will also inevitably raise the age of people who are wishing to quit. Of course, if a Government want to do it later, you could end up in a very tricky situation where you are asking people to enforce an age of sale of 18 for alcohol, a requirement that no one born after 1 January 2009 is allowed to buy tobacco, and another requirement as yet to be determined for vaping. That could make things more complicated still, so I am not sure about that, but thank you for your answer. My other question is about advertising. You will be aware that I put forward an amendment to the Conservative Bill to try to restrict advertising, because I think it is important to try to restrict advertising to children. How will health professionals who are promoting vaping as an alternative to smoking specifically in a medical setting, not necessarily on the tube or the side of a bus, be protected from being criminalised? Andrew Gwynne: This is an area in which this Bill really does build on the previous Government’s iteration of the Bill. I want to take the politics out of it and thank Members such as yourself who really pushed this last time round. We are able to do this because it was a commitment of the Labour party in the 2024 manifesto that we would ban the advertising of vapes and the promotion of vapes in sponsorship. There is 75% support for an advertising ban on vapes. In terms of being able to promote vapes as a quit aid, of course, you will have read in part 6 of the Bill that it is only an offence if advertising is done in the course of business. That excludes the promotion of vapes as a quit aid. That is something that hopefully you will welcome.

• 7 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Second sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q Can I ask about staff training? Once the legislation goes through, which we expect it to do, retailers up and down the country will need to ensure that their staff are properly trained to follow the law. One of the challenges they will have—not initially, but as it goes forward—is identifying how old individuals are. Are you aware of any training that helps staff members to identify which people are under, say, 30 or 40 years old? Inga Becker-Hansen: Specifically for under 30 or 40 years old, I do not think we have anything. I imagine that with the Bill something would be implemented.

• 7 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Second sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q Is there an effect on their concentration or behaviour in class, for example? It is difficult to prove what is in vapes. Again, there are instances of vapes containing illegal substances, but that is difficult to prove, because of their small size and where they can be secreted or hidden. There is evidence out there of drugs being contained in vapes—snus or Spice in the vapes—being quite addictive. Any kind of addiction leads to misbehaviour, particularly if you put that into secondary schools or among older children in primary schools.

• 7 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Second sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q You have talked about time. Time can mean lots of different things—weeks, months, years. What sort of timeframe do you have in mind? David Fothergill: The important thing is that we have the right consultation and the right plan for bringing through new trading standards. I think we would be alarmed if you said you were going to introduce this on 1 January next year, but if you said we had two years or slightly longer to implement it I think we would be much more comfortable.

• 7 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Second sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q Thank you for coming this afternoon. What do you think will be the challenges facing business in implementing the new age of sale regulations? Inga Becker-Hansen: Good afternoon, and thank you for the opportunity to speak. The question was about age verification, I think—sorry, it is a bit quiet for me here.

• 7 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Second sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q I do not think the microphones are working terribly well today. Wendy, do you have any thoughts on the size of the fines? Wendy Martin: Lord Bichard has spoken about the rather varying levels of fines that do exist. The other point worth making is that the issuing of a fixed penalty notice is not automatic anyway. A lot of the work, especially around first offences, would be to try to support businesses with advice on how to comply with the law. It is not the case that, immediately you find something wrong, there will be a fixed penalty notice. There are a lot of drivers for compliance, especially with legitimate businesses that want to comply. As we said, prosecution is an option and you have the £200 fixed penalty, but for longer-term or egregious offences—definitely for repeat offences—prosecution through the magistrates’ court is likely to be an option. Lord Michael Bichard: One of the problems with prosecution is that it costs money. Therefore, if you can train retailers not to offend, that is a better outcome than having to issue a fixed penalty. For local authorities in particular, with their resource situation being what it is, the last thing they want is more bureaucracy around fixed penalties, prosecutions and all the rest.

• 7 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Second sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q The last time I was asked for ID —when I was trying to buy a bottle of champagne, an orchid and a punnet of strawberries in a major supermarket—I was 38, so it would seem we are not very good at working out how old people are, or some people are not. We are going to ask people to decide not just if someone is younger than 25, but potentially if they are younger than 45 or 35. Is that going to be difficult for people to do? Professor Linda Bauld: I think we also heard this from previous witnesses, but as the legislation comes into place, it is really not about 34-year-olds versus 35-year-olds; it is about acting on the age of sale gradually, so that we are de-normalising tobacco use and stopping the start at an earlier stage. By the time we get to the difference between the 34-year-old and the 35-year-old, you will have far lower smoking rates than we do at the moment. The modelling for the legislation that was carried out by the University of Sheffield for the Department of Health and Social Care suggests, as I think Hazel Cheeseman said earlier, that by 2040 we will have reduced the smoking rate among those aged 14 to 30 to 0.4%—down from 0.6% by 2030—so I think you are going to see very low rates. To go back to Challenge 25, age verification is something that we can build in, and, irrespective of how old you are, actually seeing proof of age will support this.

• 7 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Second sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q Thank you for giving evidence this afternoon. Do you think that the penalties proposed by the legislation are too high or too low, or are they sufficient to act as a deterrent? What are your thoughts on that? Lord Michael Bichard: Good afternoon. We will try to be provocative, so we can keep this going until half-past three. It is as long as a piece of string, in a way. If you compare the penalties to those in some other legislation, they are a bit low. On the other hand, trading standards can prosecute if we find, for example, that someone is a repeat offender, and then I think the fines are up to £2,500. The only thing we thought might be possible would be to have a higher level of fine for a second offence. I think the first offence is a £90 fixed penalty, but you could have a couple of hundred for a second offence. But we enforce; we do not fix the fines—we just do what you tell us. It is not an unreasonable figure, although it certainly could go up, rather than down, and we could have something for a second offence. Also, we could take action through prosecution for someone who was constantly offending.

• 7 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Second sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q Professor Agrawal, do you have anything to contribute about the effects of vaping on older people? Professor Sanjay Agrawal: The majority of adults who vape have smoked, so they are using vapes to quit smoking. The amount of research that looks at populations who have never smoked, who have only vaped, is actually quite small—the longitudinal studies are still not there. We know from shorter-term studies that vaping can lead to things like coughing and throat irritation, but it is important to consider the alternative, which is continued smoking. I estimate that, in the roughly 30 years since I qualified and started professional practice, about 3 million people in the UK have died from smoking tobacco. The intensive care unit in which I work and the lung cancer clinics that I do are full of people who have come to harm from accrued smoking. There should be no doubt that smoking combusted tobacco is the key thing that we want to prevent future generations being subjected to. There are still 6 million smokers in the UK, and we need to help as many of them as we can to stop smoking. Vaping is one means by which they can stop smoking, and that is really important.

• 7 Jan 2025 · NHS Waiting Times · Hansard source

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  The Secretary of State needs to be careful with the words he uses, as you said, Mr Speaker, because his words did cause anxiety among people. It was not a disingenuous question; it was a genuine question to make sure that people are reassured. It will not have escaped the Secretary of State’s notice that it is cold outside. Removal of the winter fuel allowance has reduced elderly people’s ability to follow the advice that he gave last week, which was to turn the heating on. What assessment has he made of the number of additional admissions caused by his removal of the winter fuel allowance? What effect is that having on the Government’s ability to deliver their reduction in elective backlogs?

• 7 Jan 2025 · NHS Waiting Times · Hansard source

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  Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. [ Interruption. ] I am sorry—that is the last time I will get called. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Yesterday, in relation to the elective backlog, the Secretary of State said: “Where we can treat working people faster, we will, and we make no apology for doing so.” —[ Official Report , 6 January 2025; Vol. 759, c. 597.] Labour politicians have struggled to define what they mean by working people, but his words have caused anxiety. Will he reassure those with disabilities that prevent them from working and retired elderly people who have worked all their lives that they will not be pushed to the back of the queue and that treatment will continue to be provided in the NHS on the basis of clinical need?

• 7 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (First sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q The current advice, which was reiterated by the chief medical officer in the last session, is that if you do not vape, do not vape, but that if you smoke, vaping may be a better alternative. How will the measures in the Bill make it easier or harder for that message to be conveyed to the public who smoke? Hazel Cheeseman: That will be a really crucial question as this Bill progresses, and it was touched on by the chief medical officers. The nature of this Bill is that we are taking powers across a range of areas, which we know will help us to prevent the uptake of vaping among children, which we are all concerned about. We are restricting the marketing of vapes and the way they are branded, and taking powers around the design of products and in relation to flavours. It is important that those powers, as was discussed in the last session, are broad in the Bill and defined through further consultation and regulation, giving us that flexibility to shape policy going forward. We know from our experience in reducing smoking among children that the things that will work are reducing the appeal, reducing the availability and reducing the affordability of products. The Bill, alongside the excise tax that is planned for 2026, will take us a long way on that journey to addressing those aspects and reducing the appeal among children. We also want to ensure that products remain available for adult smokers to switch to. We know from our own research that adult smokers have very inaccurate views at the moment about the relative harms from vaping compared with smoking. Part of the issue is the way in which products are branded and pushed in people’s faces when they go into every corner shop up and down the country. That prevents the understanding that these products might be valuable for smoking cessation and promotes the idea that they are a kind of lifestyle choice for teenagers. Removing the branding and the displays in shops will allow the message that these products could be valuable to help people stop smoking, and will allow that message to land more easily than it currently does. That will hopefully realign those misperceptions and get us back to the position that we were in in, say, 2019 or 2020, where these products were being used as a smoking cessation tool and not really being used by other groups in the population. If we can get back to that, that would be the ideal scenario. Hopefully, the legislation takes us a bit closer to that.

• 7 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (First sitting) · Hansard source

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  Q What effect do you think vapes have on the health and the lungs of young people? Do you think the Bill will help to reduce the take-up of vaping in children? Sarah Sleet: In general, there is very little evidence around vaping, and we need a really considerable effort to get the evidence in place, but we do know that nicotine in general is not healthy for children, and vaping nicotine products will not be good news. We have some evidence about the harms that it causes—we know that nicotine in particular is very problematic for very young children and developing brains—but we do not have the same level of evidence base that we have with tobacco. That is why this Bill and the precautionary approach that it takes in terms of restricting children’s access to vapes and the attractiveness of vapes to children is very important.