Caroline Johnson MP: speeches

Speeches

• 14 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Fifth sitting) · Hansard source

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  My hon. Friend is right that the offence of selling a product to a person born on or after 1 January 2009 is something someone could do unintentionally. They could genuinely believe the ID in front of them, or that the person looked so significantly older that it was not even necessary to ask them for ID, whereas selling cigarettes outside the packaging requires the deliberate act of removing them from the packet and selling them individually, in a way that is not normally done. I think my hon. Friend is right, and it is perhaps surprising to have a deliberate act at a lower fine level than a potentially unintentional one.

• 14 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Fifth sitting) · Hansard source

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  As the Minister says, clause 4 makes it against the law to sell cigarettes that are not in their original packaging, so that individual or small amounts of cigarettes cannot be sold separately. That is in part because cigarette packets now have standardised formats, warnings and information designed to alert the smoker to the health problems caused by the smoking habit, and selling cigarettes outside the packets means the smoker avoids that information. I asked the Minister earlier about proposals for warning notices about smoking on the cigarette paper itself, but I did not hear his thoughts. The notices might ensure that, were individual sales to happen despite the law, the warning would still be received by the child or smoker, but there is also the risk of adding additional chemicals to the paper. Where does he think the benefit or balance of risk lies in that respect? Everywhere else the Bill makes it an offence for a “person” to do something, so why does the clause mention a “tobacco retailer” rather than a “person”? If the Minister does not wish cigarettes to be sold individually, why would it be more of an offence for a proper tobacco retailer to sell them individually than it would be for an individual who is not a tobacco retailer? Why the change in wording? I do not understand. If someone is not a tobacco retailer, it would clearly be illegal, because they would have no licence. Why not have this additional offence for the most reckless people, so that they can be dealt with more severely? As the Minister says, the minimum pack size of 20 was brought forward in 2017, because it was felt that packs of 10 were closer to the level of pocket money and were encouraging the uptake of cigarettes by children. When we come to vaping, we will discuss the pocket money nature of some of these products.

• 14 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Fifth sitting) · Hansard source

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  Clause 2 makes it an offence for a person aged 18 or over to make a proxy purchase of tobacco products, herbal smoking products or cigarette papers for a person born on or after 1 January 2009. It essentially stops an older person going in and buying those products for a younger person, which we are aware has been happening for many years with both tobacco and alcohol. If found guilty, the person committing the offence faces a level 4 fine on the standard scale, which hon. Members will recall is £2,500. The clause replaces the current offence under section 91 of the Children and Families Act of someone aged over 18 buying or attempting to buy tobacco products or cigarette papers on behalf of someone aged under 18 in England and Wales. In many ways, that seems a sensible consequence to clause 1. If we want it to be illegal for people born after a set date to have tobacco, it makes sense to ensure that people cannot buy it for them. However, I have some questions, particularly in relation to cigarette papers. I did not particularly talk about cigarette papers in our discussion of clause 1 because they are more rightly talked about in relation to clause 2, which treats cigarette papers differently, in so far as it makes them illegal unless a person can prove that they are using them for something else. I looked into what that something else might be. I naively thought that cigarette papers were essentially just bits of paper of a particular thinness that could be rolled up and stuck together with a little gum arabic once somebody had rolled whatever they wanted to roll inside them; in fact, that turns out not to be the case because of the law. The papers contain ethylene-vinyl acetate, which makes them more fire-resistant. The sad situation is that every year people smoke in bed or in their armchair, fall asleep and cause themselves burns, and sometimes even cause death or house fires. The ethylene-vinyl acetate—a sort of plastic—added to cigarette papers helps them to self-extinguish and reduces the risk of fires; we know that some particularly dreadful fires, such as the Kings Cross fire, are believed to have been caused by loose cigarettes. The cigarette papers are essentially made from plant fibre, such as bamboo flax and rice, but they can be flavoured and coloured. In the evidence given to the Committee last Tuesday, we heard about the tobacco industry’s aim of ensuring that younger people are enticed by colours and flavours. A quick look at Amazon—other sellers are, of course, available—reveals that people can buy cigarette papers in a whole range of bright colours. People can also buy cigarette papers with pictures of cherries, apricots, bubbles and all sorts of things on them. I thought it was interesting that that has not been covered in relation to cigarette papers. Why give an exemption allowing them to continue to be sold when the reality is that they will continue to be used for rolling either illegal tobacco or other forms of illegal drug?

• 14 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Fifth sitting) · Hansard source

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  Amendments 58 and 59 seek to amend clause 2. Will we get the chance to debate clause 2 later, Mr Dowd?

• 14 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Sixth sitting) · Hansard source

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  Thank you, Sir Roger. I am grateful for your guidance as Chair on the order of doing things. It has been, at times, quite confusing. Clauses 13, 14, 61 and 79 regulate the display of products in England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. It does not take much to realise why that is necessary. Simply take a drive down a high street in any small town across the country, and one will come across a shop with an entire front window blocked out with pictures of sweets, other confectionery and chocolate, usually an energy drink or two thrown in, and a whole host of brightly-coloured vaping devices. The clear message is that these are fun and exciting products—not stop-smoking devices, but recreational products—and is clearly designed to entice children into purchasing them. I had cause to go to a major service station on the A1-M25 junction, and as I came out of the bathroom I noticed that, at the eye level of about a six-year-old, there was a whole pile of coloured vapes in a shop front. Going into a major newsagent to purchase a newspaper, one will also find a whole load of pictures behind the counter. I have even seen electronic video displays advertising a vaping product in WHSmith—I think it was a Lost Mary—so one cannot get away from the advertising of those products even if one wishes to. It is clearly necessary for the display of those products within stores to be regulated to ensure that children are not enticed—the industry would say inadvertently, while others would suggest very deliberately—into wanting to buy them. Clause 13 provides the Secretary of State with powers to regulate the display of tobacco products, herbal smoking products, cigarette papers, vaping products and nicotine products. It also regulates their prices. I wonder if the Minister could comment on what that means, and how the prices of all those products will come under some sort of Government control. Will the Government fix the prices and therefore the profit, or will they apply additional taxation to the product—something that they seem to like to do, although it would not necessarily be as unwelcome in this case as some of the other taxes they have applied recently—so that they create an overall price? How does the Minister intend this price fixing, as it were, to work? Clause 13 also gives the capacity to regulate the display of empty retail packaging or anything else that represents the product, whether that be putting up a video display or large versions of the products at an entrance, so that the products can be kept away from children. Under the Tobacco Advertising and Promotion Act 2002 and regulations made under it, there are already restrictions on the display in the course of business of tobacco products and pricing, but not specifically nicotine and vaping products. Given all we have heard about the addictive nature of nicotine, the enticement of children into taking such products, and the harm they may cause children particularly in adolescence, this is a welcome change. Clause 13(6) confirms that before making regulations, the Secretary of State must consult who he or she considers it appropriate to consult. I am interested to understand whether the Minister believes that such a consultation should include the tobacco industry and/or the vaping and nicotine product industry, whether that be medical or otherwise, and whether he sees a distinction between the two. Clause 13 creates an offence for failure to comply with the regulations, and anyone convicted of an offence under this clause on indictment can be subject to imprisonment of up to two years, or a fine, or both. If they are convicted of a slightly lesser offence on summary conviction, they can be subject to imprisonment for a term not exceeding a general limit in a magistrates court, or a fine, or both. I refer the Minister to my previous remark that the general limit in a magistrates court is apparently going to double after the Lord Chancellor’s statement in October. As such, is the Minister content to have a fluctuating limit or would he prefer a fixed one? Perhaps that is something to consider before Report. Clearly, deliberately advertising vapes in a way that may be attractive to children requires a reasonably stiff penalty. Under clause 13(1), the legislation explicitly allows for the regulation of physical displays of these products, including empty packaging and pricing information, which are often used to draw attention to them. Subsection (2) defines the “relevant products” pretty comprehensively, encompassing not just tobacco and vaping items but accessories such as cigarette papers and herbal smoking products. The broad definition ensures that the regulations cover a wide array of potentially harmful products. Subsection (3) further strengthens that by extending the rules to include representations of these products, such as promotional materials or images that might signify them at the point of sale, which is again welcome. Currently, vaping products are often displayed prominently in retail settings, frequently at checkout counters or in bright, attention-grabbing displays. That placement encourages impulse purchases and can make those products more appealing to young people. Unlike tobacco products, which have strict display restrictions, vaping and nicotine products remain accessible and visible in shops, and the standard packaging laws for cigarettes do not apply, for example, to their shape and colour. Clause 13 aims to address that disparity by introducing measures to regulate the visibility and presentation of the products. The collaborative approach to the consultation will hopefully strike the right balance between public health objectives and the interests of businesses, but I urge the Minister to give further information on how we can strike that balance while maintaining that the important thing is to protect the health of the public, particularly children, from vaping products. Both nicotine and non-nicotine vaping products, unlike tobacco, are currently allowed to be displayed at the point of sale in shops on countertops, in eye-catching displays on the shop floor, and in the windows. It is somewhat ironic that sweeties and chocolate have been banned at the till because of the pester power of children, only to be replaced in some shops by vapes. I suggest that, if any parent were given the choice, they would rather their children were having sweets than vapes, which are clearly addictive and much more harmful. There is much to be considered on the nature of unintended consequences, as well as the nature of the industry with which we are dealing.

• 14 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Sixth sitting) · Hansard source

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  rose—

• 14 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Sixth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I am grateful to the Minister for providing the extra information. Amendments 63, 64, 81 and 80 were designed once again to provoke debate on the coherency of the penalties across the different clauses of the Bill. Sometimes the penalties are different for the same offence and, inexplicably, sometimes they are the same for different offences that perhaps one would expect them to be different for. However, I will not press those amendments to a vote, and I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Clause 10 ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clause 11 PURCHASE OF VAPING OR NICOTINE PRODUCTS ON BEHALF OF UNDER 18S

• 14 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Sixth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I think my hon. Friend highlights something common across our party. Many members of our party are uncertain, as I understand my hon. Friend is, about the changes to tobacco legislation for adults with the competency to make risk-based decisions. I understand your points; I do not necessarily share them, but I understand them.

• 14 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Sixth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I beg to move amendment 65, in clause 11, page 6, line 5, at end insert “, save if it is a first offence.”. See explanatory statement to Amendment 66.

• 14 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Sixth sitting) · Hansard source

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  The hon. Gentleman is right to raise the importance of managing nicotine dependence for those with mental health conditions. We know that smoking, in particular, is more likely to take place among people with mental health conditions or those who are in mental health in-patient units. I am sure we will go on to discuss the issue of vending machines. Last May, in the previous Bill Committee, we heard evidence from the Mental Health Foundation about the myth that tobacco helps with anxiety, and how that myth needed busting. We also heard about the importance of giving extra support to people with mental health conditions to enable them to kick the habit of nicotine—whether that habit is smoking or vaping—because it will help both their physical and mental health. However, it can be more challenging for them to complete. I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for raising that important issue. Returning to clause 10, a study considering the effects in adolescents of nicotine dependence after the initiation of smoking cigarettes found that the symptoms of nicotine dependence can appear only a few days after initiation. Given that oral nicotine pouches contain similar or higher levels of nicotine, similar symptoms may appear following initiation of oral nicotine pouch use, which is why it is particularly important for children that we pass clause 10 and ensure that children are protected from these nicotine products.

• 14 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Sixth sitting) · Hansard source

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  To be clear, I am not suggesting that it should be on the market, as the Minister well knows, because I support both helping people using tobacco to quit and preventing people from starting to use tobacco. I merely want to understand why there is a difference in treatment. On the basis of what the Minister has said, why not make the penalties for cigarette sales the same as the robust penalties that already exist for snus sales? It is his choice.

• 14 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Sixth sitting) · Hansard source

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  Amendments 65, 66, 82 and 83 were specifically there to provoke debate on the coherency of the penalty portfolio across the Bill. The Minister has clarified his position on that. It is very important that we see those who are selling vapes to children or, in the case of clause 11, buying vapes for children, appropriately deterred from doing so or appropriately punished. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Clause 11 ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clause 12 Vaping and nicotine product vending machines

• 14 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Sixth sitting) · Hansard source

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  The regulations will need to be enforced not just in a large supermarket, where the shop assistant has the benefit of a security guard and other—

• 14 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Sixth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I am sorry, Sir Mark. The regulations will need to be enforced whether one is a shop assistant in a small shop or in a large shop. In a large shop that sells tobacco, such as a large supermarket, one might have the benefit of a security guard, additional staff and many more people around. Alternatively, a 19-year-old might be trying to enforce the regulations on a Saturday evening in a rural shop many miles from the local police station, with no security guard or anyone else around.

• 14 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Sixth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I am defending myself, as the Minister has accused me of something, Sir Mark.

• 14 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Sixth sitting) · Hansard source

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  In the provisional grouping provided by the Clerk, you have clauses 13, 14, 61 and 79 together. Would you like to—

• 14 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Sixth sitting) · Hansard source

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  My hon. Friend is talking about the availability and visibility of products, and my hon. Friend the Member for Farnham and Bordon talked about the availability of vaping products as medical products. However, the Committee heard evidence from the MHRA that there are no medically approved vaping devices currently registered in the United Kingdom. While it continues to encourage vaping companies to come forward with a vaping product for regulation and medical assessment, that so far has not come to fruition.

• 14 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Sixth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I beg to move amendment 63, in clause 10, page 5, line 33, at end insert “, save if it is a first offence.” See explanatory statement to Amendment 66.

• 14 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Sixth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I thank the Minister for going through the questions thoroughly. I did not want to risk his getting to the end of his speech without answering the question of why snus is treated differently from other forms of tobacco. Is it merely a historical artefact?

• 14 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Sixth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I thank the Minister for clarifying that so comprehensively. Clause 8 deals with the sale of snus. Clause 7 having made it an offence to manufacture snus, clause 8 bans the sale of snus, which it defines, in the same way as described by the Minister, as a “relevant oral tobacco product”. In wording that is slightly different from that in other clauses, clause 8 also describes the offence as not only to sell, but to “offer or expose…for sale”. I had to look up what that meant. To help the Committee, apparently, to offer or expose something for sale means to expose it to attract an offer of purchase from the public. Something is put in the shop window—in the same way as the bongs the Minister described in a shop window the other day—to be visible to a customer and the customer may then choose to make an offer for the purchase of the product, and the product is thereby exposed for sale. In essence, this provision will make putting these products in a shop window an offence. I am interested to understand why the wording in clause 8 is different from that for all the other tobacco and nicotine products in the Bill, where that wording is not used. If the Minister could explain that, I will be grateful. Again, the defence offered by clause 8 is “all reasonable steps”, but I am not sure what such steps would be, so I will be grateful for clarification on that, too, please. The penalties for disobeying clause 8 are quite severe. The penalty on summary conviction is “imprisonment for a term not exceeding the general limit” in a magistrates court, which is six months, potentially rising to 12 months based on what the Lord Chancellor has said over the past few months, or a fine—of how much, the Bill does not state, so perhaps the Minister could help with that—or both. On conviction on indictment, the penalty is “imprisonment for a term not exceeding 2 years, or a fine, or both.” That means that we have a contradiction within the Bill. For virtually any other tobacco or nicotine products that may not be sold, but are sold by an offender, the offender is liable for a fine at level 3, 4 or 5, but clause 8—the sale of snus, as distinct from all other tobacco products—creates an offence that carries a penalty of significant imprisonment. I am not saying that that should not be the case, but I am interested to understand the rationale for the difference, because, notwithstanding any devolution differences, the decision on what to do in England and Wales is clearly for this Government and this Minister. Clause 9 concerns possession with intent to supply in the course of business of a “relevant oral tobacco product”, as has been defined in clauses 7 and 8. I am interested in what is meant by “the course of business”. If one looks at section 4 of the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971, where possession with intent to supply is most readily thought of, it is the intent to supply it to another person. However, does “the course of business” imply that money must change hands? If one had the intent to supply to another without being paid, would that not be in “the course of business” and therefore be legal? Also, does the word “business” itself imply a properly regulated business? It could not be a properly regulated business in so far as it would be an illegal sale. Does the Minister therefore make a distinction between the product being sold from a business premises as opposed to being bought down the pub from an acquaintance? Amendments 60, 61 and 62 to clause 9 basically look once again at the principle of proportionality. If, for example, we were to prosecute someone for the sale of cigarettes to a 19-year-old born on 1 January 2009, and it was that person’s first offence, we would give them a fine—so why would we wish to consider imprisoning somebody at the first offence for selling snus? The crime would appear to be somewhat similar but the penalty is very different. I do not intend to push the amendments to a vote, although other hon. Members may wish to, but they are designed to provoke debate on the proportionality of different offences, and the inconsistency between the penalties for different offences that may appear to be very similar. Amendments 60 and 61 insert the phrase “save if it is a first offence” and amendment 62 says: “A person who has admitted guilt of a first offence…is liable to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale or a caution.” I will be interested in the Minister’s comments.

• 14 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Sixth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I understand that my hon. Friend thinks that the amendment is sensible, but Dame Andrea Leadsom, the public health Minister in the previous Government, asked Mark Rowland, the chief executive of the Mental Health Foundation, the “chicken-and-egg question”, as she put it: “Does smoking make you depressed, does depression cause you to smoke or is it both?” He said: “it is difficult to disaggregate exactly for many people, but we know that both are a real issue. We talk about this cycle of smoking increasing the risk of poor mental health and poor mental health increasing the chances of smoking and the number of cigarettes someone smokes. People with mental health problems smoke far more, and that addiction then exacerbates psychiatric symptoms. Those psychiatric symptoms also then lead to increased poverty and increased chances of being unemployed, and that leads to poorer mental health. It is a complex picture, but we are really starting to see the causal drivers of mental ill health.” –– [ Official Report, Tobacco and Vapes Public Bill Committee, 1 May 2024; c. 116, Q179.] Does my hon. Friend agree that one should not say that those in mental health hospitals need access to vapes or nicotine in the form of pouches from vending machines to ease their mental health? In actual fact, it may do quite the opposite.

• 14 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Sixth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. Part of me wants to say, “Well, what do you do when the child goes into the newsagent? Put a blindfold on them?” If the displays are visible to adults, they will be visible to the children who are walking beside them. It would be helpful if my hon. Friend has any ideas on how we can ensure that, when walking into an average newsagent, children cannot see something that grown-ups can.

• 14 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Sixth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I thank the hon. Member for his intervention. I will come to amendment 96 and the mental health aspect shortly, but I will deal with the clause first, which makes sure that these vending machines are not available. At the moment, one can buy nicotine products in a vending machine where those exist. As I said, the ASH survey showed that 6.6% of 11 to 17-year-olds who currently vape have access to vapes through a vending machine, so this is happening in the UK already. The hon. Gentleman will have heard me say earlier that, until this Bill passes, it is not illegal to sell nicotine products to children. Some responsible retailers have a voluntary scheme for not selling to under-18s, but it is not a legal requirement. Some irresponsible sellers do sell vapes to children. Paragraph 782 of the impact assessment says: “There is limited evidence presented on the number and locations of vape vending machines, however it is suggested by online retailers that they are currently predominantly placed in locations such as nightclubs, bars and pubs. It is anticipated that” without this legislation “the market will develop further and vape vending machines will become more prevalent in other locations such as supermarkets, train/bus stations and other locations accessible to under-18s.” In my mind’s eye, I remember recently seeing a vape in a vending machine alongside sweets; I just cannot quite remember where it was, but it was certainly somewhere that was easily accessible to people. The aim of the clause is to protect children and to ensure that vending machines—commonly found dispensing food and drink in child-friendly establishments such as canteens and leisure centres, and easily used by young people—are not available. The machines protect anon—anonymity; I might have to put my teeth in, Sir Mark—

• 14 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Sixth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I thank the Minister for clearly explaining that children should never vape. In fact, if children are smoking and wish to quit, they can get support from their GP and others, but they should not use vaping, because vaping is bad for children. To take the Minister back to my question about new clause 10, before he took the two previous interventions, he said that he is working with DSIT to provide regulations and legislation that would cover new clause 10 and ensure that online sellers of age-restricted products are obliged to check a person’s age before selling them. Will he advise when he expects such regulations to be available? Will they be in time for his smoke-free generation in a couple of years’ time?

• 14 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Sixth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. Last Tuesday, we heard in evidence from various medical sources, and both the Select Committee and our processor Bill Committee heard in evidence that nicotine is, of itself, harmful, and that the chemicals added to vapes are harmful. In some cases, they are extremely harmful. I will talk more about vaping chemicals later. Indeed, sometimes the products do not contain what they are expected to contain, and that can be worse still. I will return to that subject later, too. Nicotine is highly addictive and can permanently affect the development of the adolescent brain. We have heard how the industry targets young people, and that is because the adolescent brain is particularly vulnerable. Nicotine can permanently affect its development. Nicotine also fulfils all the criteria for drug dependence. Giving it up is very difficult, and withdrawal symptoms can include cravings, irritability, anxiety, trouble concentrating, headaches and other mental symptoms. Symptoms associated with nicotine and dependence are often not recognised by novice smokers, particularly if they are young.