Caroline Johnson MP: speeches 2025

Speeches

• 21 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  If the Government Whip is happy, we will keep going. As well as cigars and cigarettes, smokeless tobacco products such as chewing tobacco and snuff became available in various flavours, including mint, apple and peach. These products targeted those who preferred an alternative to smoking while still seeking the satisfaction of nicotine. Flavoured smokeless products, in particular, gained popularity among younger users because of their sweet flavours and more discreet use. From the 1990s onwards we have seen an acceleration in the marketing of flavoured nicotine products, particularly those aimed at younger people. At this time, the tobacco industry shifted focus towards expanding its consumer base by targeting young people through advertising and product innovation. Flavoured cigarettes, cigars and smokeless tobacco became a key part of the strategy, with marketing campaigns emphasising the fun, sweet flavours. Notable products that emerged were fruit and dessert-flavoured cigarettes, often marketed in coloured packaging designed to appeal to younger, fashion-conscious consumers. Brands such as Marlboro, Camel and Newport produced sweet, fruity flavoured cigarettes including cherry, vanilla and grape varieties. Tobacco companies also started adding candy-like flavours such as sour apple and berry to smokeless products. The quest for flavoured products is part of a broader marketing effort to make tobacco use more socially acceptable and less intimidating. These products were seen by some as more approachable, less harsh and more in line with consumer taste, whereas sugary and fruity flavours dominated the food and beverage industry. Recognising the role of flavoured cigarettes in widening the appeal of smoking, various countries began outlawing them in the 2010s. In 2016, flavoured cigarettes, including menthol cigarettes, were banned across the European Union and in the UK in response to the European tobacco products directive. In response to that directive, the tobacco industry sought new ways to circumvent the ban on flavoured products and to continue to appeal to customers. These methods included introducing flavoured filters and flavoured papers for those who hand rolled cigarettes. Menthol papers and filters are widely accessible from retailers across the UK, both in store and online. British shoppers can also access, on websites such as Amazon, a gallery of flavoured cigarette papers including apple, cherry, peaches and cream—including ones with pictures of apples or peaches on them—as well as a few old favourites familiar to those in the vaping industry, such as chocolate, liquorice, bubble gum and cotton candy. One may almost forget they are smoking tobacco—perhaps that is the point. No discussion of flavours would be complete without mentioning vapes. With the advent of vapes in the 21st century, we have seen an eruption of flavours on to the market, sometimes of the most implausible kind, the unicorn milkshake referred to by the Minister being an example—I have certainly never seen a unicorn or its milk. The standard menthol and fruit flavours are popular, but many more unusual flavours lurk in the dark corners of the vape market, including butter, roast chicken, garlic, tuna, black peppercorn, bacon and Worcestershire sauce. There are websites containing reviews of those flavours—some are not terribly popular, but there are lots of different flavours available. While some of these are obviously more novel flavours, there has also been a rise in flavours with clear appeal to children and seemingly little appeal to adults, such as candy floss, fruit loops, milkshake and bubble gum. If that sounds too grown up, I understand that the vape market also offers not just unicorn milkshake, but unicorn blood, which sounds very sad, as well as honey bear and rainbow candy. Online, one can easily find vapes flavoured like specific sweets, such as Skittles, Starburst, gummy bears, jelly beans and Sour Patch Kids. It is not clear whether the owners of those brands have given permission for them to be used. In dealing with an issue as wide-ranging as the flavours of tobacco, nicotine and vaping products, it perhaps worthwhile examining what products like this do to our society on a moral and aesthetic level. With that, the mind is drawn to Edmund Burke’s 1757 pamphlet, whose introduction is entitled “On Taste”, which is apposite to today’s discussion. Burke distinguishes between the rational and emotional elements in our judgment of beauty and taste. He posits that our emotional response to things—what pleases or displeases us—is so deeply tied to our senses and desires, which can sometimes override reason. Flavoured vapes, with their artificially sweet, intense flavours and bright colours, cater to the immediate emotional pleasure of the consumer—what Burke describes as a “base” or overly indulgent form of aesthetic experience. These excessive and artificial flavours may distort or corrupt the finer faculties of taste. Burke identifies that aesthetics and taste have social and moral implications for society overall. No doubt he would view the proliferation of flavoured vapes as the very debasement of our society, especially if it targets youth or promotes unhealthy habits—as it does. Cotton candy-flavoured vapes, Burke would probably say, are an emotional and sensory indulgence that ultimately contributes to decay, where the immediate gratification of the senses trumps the more enduring experience that shapes a moral society. That reminds me once again of when headteacher Laranya Caslin told the Health and Social Care Committee about students asking, “Have you tried this flavour? Have you tried that flavour? I prefer this one.” She said that “if you want…to get involved in a social conversation and you haven’t watched the last episode of ‘Love Island’, you are a bit out of it,” and explained that the same is true of conversations on vape flavours. Ms Caslin made a very important point, which is sometimes neglected, that role of flavours—which is why they need regulating in clause 92—in this dynamic is not just about personal preference, but can for some children be about a sense of belonging. It is a powerful form of social currency. It is not just about the product itself, but about what it represents within the broader context of social life. Some Members—but not the Minister, as he has been clear—may remember smoking cigarettes in their youth in an effort to fit in or look cool. The proliferation of flavours has made vapes more of a trend to be constantly followed and more than just a product; in many ways, they have become a cultural marker, as much the clothes people wear or the media they consume. We have heard examples of students who have chosen their vape for the day on the basis of its colour and flavour, to match what they are wearing. The Government have looked at impact of clause 92. Paragraph 990 of the impact assessment states: “In the UK, a 2024 survey by ASH shows that the most frequently used vape flavouring for people that vape under 18 years old is ‘fruit flavour,’ with 59% of people that currently vape under 18 using them, while 16% of children who vape choose sweet flavours such as chocolate or candy, and 5.9% choose to vape energy or soft drink flavours.” I note the Minister’s comments about energy drinks in last night’s debate on obesity. The impact assessment continues: “The use of flavoured vapes in adult smokers has also increased. In 2015, most adults who vaped used tobacco flavour. However, in recent years there has been a shift, and in 2023 more adults are choosing fruit flavours (47%), as well as mint and menthol (17%), than tobacco (12%).” I asked one of the members of the industry very early on, “Why is it that you need the flavours?” [ Interruption. ]

• 21 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  My support for the hon. Gentleman diminished slightly when he said that the data will be available for everyone to see. There is a point to saying that if the data is available, sharing it with Government, public health officials and those who treat it confidentially to try to improve the public’s health, and to trading standards to assist enforcement, may be useful, but providing data to competitors is the wrong thing to do. First, that is unfair in a free market. Secondly, might not this data be used by companies in this industry, which we know is adaptable and agile, to increase sales in areas where they presumed a competitor was selling but have found out they are not? I am not sure that the data is required to be published for the public interest. The Minister could tell us whether there are any other instances where we expect private companies to tell us who they are selling to and where and to publish quantities of sale online for other companies to see. I cannot think of an example, but the Committee may be able to. Perhaps the hon. Member for North Somerset who is a pharmacist may be able to help, because he has more experience—

• 21 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  Thank you, Mr Dowd—I am sure you have no opinion on this matter, as you are impartial. Before giving powers under clause 90 to change packaging and make packaging regulations, it is important that we understand the Minister’s intention. Is it to strengthen or to weaken?

• 21 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  Can the Minister give us some timescales for the consultation and explain the various details that it will add to the consultation done by the previous Government?

• 21 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  Clause 90 is in part 5, on product and information requirements, and deals with the retail packaging of various products. Clause 90(1) grants the Secretary of State the authority to make regulations concerning the retail packaging of tobacco products, tobacco-related devices, herbal smoking products, cigarette papers, vaping products and nicotine products. This is one provision where tobacco-related devices are included; they have not been previously, in most clauses. The packaging is of the device, which may be supplied separately from a refill, so that is an important addition. Clause 90(2) specifies that the regulations may include “prohibitions, requirements or limitations in relation to the production, importation or supply of such products in the course of business.” That is relevant because a quick search on the internet reveals that although quite a lot of things are prohibited in the UK, including different forms of cigarettes—those with branded packaging, coloured cigarettes and the like—and they may not be legal to sell in this country, it is perfectly possible to go on to a website, buy them in British pounds and have them supplied to one’s home, so there is a clear loophole that needs to be considered. Subsection (3) outlines particular aspects that the regulations may cover, including the markings on packaging, such as the use of branding, trademarks and logos. I think the use of the word “logo” is key, because if I were to draw a pair of golden arches, people would know what I meant without my needing to write “McDonald’s” next to them, or if I did a little tick, people would know what I meant before I said that it was for Nike. The same is true of various logos, such as for Amazon and others, where the picture has become so well known that the name of the brand is not required to identify it. There is actually a board game that people can buy for their kids to test how good they are at identifying logos. Clearly, brand marketers are very aware of the use of shapes—as well as just the name—for identifying their products. It is also possible to regulate the information provided on packaging or otherwise supplied with a product and the appearance of packaging. We have seen pretty coloured packaging and packaging designed to entice children with its texture, size and shape. I have seen vape holders that are teddy bear-shaped, so that while someone is not using their vape, they can put it in a teddy bear that comes in a range of colours. They are available on Etsy. It is even possible to regulate the means by which packaging is opened. Those are useful powers for the Secretary of State to take, but only if he uses them. If he takes them and does not provide any regulations at all, they are worse than useless. Can the Minister explain the timescale in which he expects to perform any consultation required to introduce regulations to the House? In addition, subsection (3) allows the Secretary of State to address in his or her regulations any packaging features that could distinguish between different brands, the number of individual products in a packet or the quantity of a product in a packet. Products then become standardised items that are less attractive, particularly to children. Subsection (4) specifies that any regulations made under the clause will be subject to the affirmative resolution procedure, meaning that they must be approved by Parliament before coming into force. The regulations proposed as a result of the Secretary of State’s powers under the clause will build on previous regulations on shape and packaging. We are all aware that the shape, size and appearance of packaging has changed over our lifetimes. Indeed, on 20 May 2016 the UK implemented the Tobacco and Related Products Regulations 2016—the TRPRs—following the European Union’s tobacco products directive 2014/40/EU. The TRPRs form part of the current regulations retained as EU law after Brexit, and they contain a comprehensive set of rules for the regulation of nicotine-containing e-cigarettes and related products, often referred to as vapes. The TRPRs introduced several important product standards for nicotine-containing vapes, which marked a turning point in how those products are perceived and controlled. Notably, they placed limits on the nicotine strength allowed in e-liquids, restricted the size of refill bottles and tanks, and mandated specific health warnings on the packaging. The packaging requirements were introduced to ensure that customers were fully informed of the risks associated with using nicotine products. Again, placing the new regulations on top of the old ones will work only if they are properly enforced, and we have all seen examples of them not being properly enforced or followed. Under the current Tobacco and Related Products Regulations, nicotine-containing products such as e-cigarettes and e-liquids are required to carry a mandatory health warning on their packaging. However, the law allows significant flexibility on the colour, shape, style and types of branding used on those products, as we can see in the adverts when we walk down the street. Some of them are smooth-shaped, some are sharp, and some are shaped like SpongeBob SquarePants or teddy bears. There are also various flavours, although we will come to flavours later. The colours, branding and shapes are all part of the advertising to try to make the products attractive to users, and in some cases particularly to children. The approach to vapes under the current regulations is in stark contrast to the stringent requirements already in place for tobacco packaging, which is covered by the Standardised Packaging of Tobacco Products Regulations 2015. The regulations maintain that cigarettes and hand-rolling tobacco packaging must be plain, with no branding, logos or colours that could attract potential smokers. The stark difference between tobacco and vape packaging raises important questions about how best to protect young people from the growing appeal of vaping products, which are still seen by many as a safer alternative to traditional cigarettes. We must be clear that they may be safer for smokers, but not for children or people who do not smoke. It is important to understand the context behind clause 90. Before we had formal packaging regulations, cigarettes were sold with little to no concern for public health. Tobacco companies focused primarily on branding and advertising to create an appealing and recognisable product. The early 20th century saw the rise of the iconic cigarette brands, each seeking to distinguish itself through distinctive packaging designs. Often vibrant, colourful and glamorous—as we are seeing with vapes—they were designed to entice new customers, including young people, and to create a sense of status or sophistication. Cigarette packaging became a key component of the advertising strategy, with slogans, logos and images intended to convey a lifestyle associated with smoking. Of course, a young person attracted to them would have bought that packet, carried it and shown it to their friends. The packaging would form part of the attraction of the product, and encouraged people to take on a product that we would not have wanted them to. There were no health warnings at that time, and little was done to inform the public of the dangers associated with smoking. That persisted for many years until the latter half of the 20th century. As Members will be aware, throughout the history of tobacco advertising, characters and mascots have played a significant role. These often colourful, friendly and appealing figures, designed to make smoking appear safe, desirable and even fun, were found on the packets.

• 21 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  Further to that point of order, Mr Dowd. To make the Committee aware, that proposal has not been shared.

• 21 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  The clause deals with non-compliant images, and subsection (1) grants the Secretary of State the power to make regulations. There is a theme here—the Secretary of State is gaining a lot of powers to make regulations, but it is not clear to what extent he will use them. We could end up with a very effective piece of legislation or not, depending on how effectively these clauses are used. The clause states: “(1) The Secretary of State may by regulations prohibit a person from doing the following in the course of business— (a) publishing an image of the retail packaging of a relevant product” —that includes tobacco products, herbal smoking products, cigarettes, vapes and nicotine products— “from which it is possible to tell that the requirements of regulations under section 90 have not been complied with;”. Essentially, this is a packet that does not follow the rules. The clause continues: “(b) publishing an image of a relevant product from which it is possible to tell that the requirements of regulations under section 91 have not been complied with;”. That might be publishing a picture of a vape shaped like SpongeBob SquarePants—assuming that the Minister decides that that is not a suitable form for a vape to take—or “causing the publication of an image of the kind mentioned in paragraph (a) or (b).” Subsection (3) states: “Regulations…are subject to the affirmative resolution procedure.” The explanatory notes set out that the clause means that an online retailer would not be able to display images of non-compliant products. As we discussed earlier, it is important that we ensure that online retailers are subject to the same regulations as in-person retailers about what they can and cannot sell. Otherwise, the rule will be ineffective, because people will still access these things by simply moving online to buy them, rather than buying them in stores. From my perspective, that is welcome. I will make a couple of other points. Although the clause authorises the Secretary of State to regulate non-compliant images, it leaves the process of enforcement somewhat open-ended. There may be inconsistencies in how regulations are applied or enforced across different sectors or different regions, especially as the clause refers broadly to various product categories. More widely, I would be interested to know how the clause might relate to clothing. The clothing brand MCS, formerly known as Marlboro Classics, made extensive use of Marlboro branding, employing the iconic lettering and colouring on its clothes. I understand that MCS has since distanced itself from its roots and rebranded under a new parent company. Many of its older clothes can still be found in vintage clothes shops. Many of them display tobacco product branding, as might old football or Formula One merchandise from the times when those sports received sponsorship from tobacco firms. I would be grateful if the Minister could elaborate on how such products might be affected by the regulations. Finally, does the Minister intend the regulations to confer an exemption on law enforcement officers who may wish to produce such images to demonstrate and educate retailers about what sort of images they may or may not be allowed to publish?

• 21 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I understand that my hon. Friend does not believe that there is evidence at the moment on particular health disbenefits of vaping, but would he agree to be guided by the chief medical officer and other experts in this field when making that decision? At one time, medical professionals did not think smoking was bad. Things change and evidence comes out over time.

• 21 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I support the hon. Gentleman’s aims, but can he clarify whether he intends the data to be published widely or just shared with the Government for the purposes of health? Will it be available to competitors, for example?

• 21 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  Thank you. I also point out that last Thursday the Opposition Whip put forward sensible proposals, and we finished to time on the clauses that were required to be assessed, so we can act very reasonably when we are asked to. Amendments 6 to 9, tabled by the hon. Member for Dartford, would require the Secretary of State to make regulations requiring producers of tobacco products and other products covered by the Bill to provide sales data by geographical area, and would require the publication of such data. I am not clear how widely the hon. Gentleman wants the data to be published. Does he want it to be published and available on the internet, or does he want it to be provided just to the Government? Perhaps he could clarify his intentions. I am not sure how helpful the hon. Gentleman thinks this measure will be, because people do not necessarily consume where they purchase. The figures for a major service station, for example—perhaps where the M1 meets the M25—could really skew the data that he intends to be collected. Data from around King’s Cross may reflect people having a cigarette before they leave on a long journey, and the same may be true at airports. Does he have a view on the effect of that, or how it would be mitigated?

• 21 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I thank my hon. Friend for her point. Of course, Etsy is an online marketplace. We have talked already about the difficulties in regulating some of these changes in the online world and about the fact that some of the current regulations on tobacco products can be circumvented by the purchase of online products. People can circumvent regulations on things such as snus by buying them online from overseas. When the Minister brings forward regulations under clause 91, how will he ensure that they are applied and enforced in both the offline and online world, which is so crucial these days, particularly for younger people? Cancer Research UK provided evidence relating to the change of packets and products. It said it would respond to the consultation. The British Medical Association also provided written evidence. I declare an interest: as well as being a consultant paediatrician, I am a member of the British Medical Association. In relation to clauses 90 and 91, it suggested “All imagery, colouring and branding should be prohibited”.

• 21 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I thank the Minister for his intervention, but the Labour manifesto is not necessarily a document on which one can rely. I do not seem to recall its saying that the Government were going to take the winter fuel allowance from old people. I will not test your patience, Mr Dowd, by giving other examples of where the Labour manifesto did not reflect what the Government went on to do, but the point has been made. One of the key issues from the public consultation on the Bill, which is therefore relevant to clause 90, is the growing concern and mounting evidence about vape packaging and the need to prevent products from appealing to children. The consultation paper issued by the Government expressed a clear desire to ensure that no vape packaging or vape devices should target young people. The Khan review, which was done under the last Government, recommended that restrictions be placed on packaging images and descriptions to ensure that vapes did not appeal to children. In that vein, the Government have suggested that they will ban the use of cartoon characters, animal images, images of inanimate objects and other child- friendly visuals used on packaging and devices, recalling the infamous tobacco mascots of times gone by. By implementing such a measure, I believe that the Government aim to reduce the attractiveness of such products to children, acknowledging that current marketing practices may be encouraging the use of such products among young people who have never smoked. A quick online search can dig up all sorts of vapes and vape paraphernalia clearly targeted at children. Vape packets with SpongeBob SquarePants, Mario Kart characters and other cartoon characters can be found online. I have listened to children who have said that they have discussed which vape they should have to match the outfit they are wearing at a particular event. There is significant public support for stricter regulation of vape packaging. A 2023 public opinion survey commissioned by Action on Smoking and Health found that 76% of adults in England are in favour of limiting the use of sweet names, cartoons and bright colours on vape packaging. That shows that there is widespread concern among the public about the need for stronger safeguards to protect young people from becoming regular users of nicotine products. The call for limiting the appeal of vape products to children is in line with broader efforts to tackle young vaping, which has become a growing public health issue in recent years, but public opinion is not the only factor that should drive the changes to packaging. The Government’s concern over youth vaping is also reflected in their efforts to develop a comprehensive regulatory approach. In addition to restricting the use of child-friendly images on packaging, there are other, broader changes, which I will not go into now. The packaging of vaping products is not just a cosmetic issue. The clause talks about cosmetic things such as what materials can be used, what packages can look like, how big they are or what shape they can be, but those have real implications for public health. By regulating the appearance and branding of these products, we can significantly influence how they are perceived by the public and, most importantly, younger audiences. The goal of the regulatory measures has to be to strike a balance between ensuring that vaping remains available as a harm-reduction tool for adults trying to quit and reducing the risks associated with its increasing appeal to young people. That delicate balance requires careful consideration and ongoing dialogue between health experts, industry stakeholders and the public. As the Minister pursues such consultation—if he is given the powers under clause 90—I hope that he will consider the matter of flexibility and the way in which the businesses tend to evolve, and that he will future-proof the regulations. The UK Government have taken an important step in recognising the potential risks posed by packaging and are actively working to mitigate those risks through public consultations, policy papers and regulatory changes. However, that is only the beginning. To effectively address the challenges posed by vaping, further measures will need to be introduced not just on packaging, but in relation to other matters, which we will come to later. We have made the case for why we should consider giving the Secretary of State or Ministers the powers to regulate retail packaging. However, the question is what impact that will have. Will it have a big or small impact, and will we be putting a large amount of regulation on to businesses for minimal effect and increased cost? Will this make a big difference? The Government have produced an impact assessment of the measures in clause 90 and their desired outcome. It says that the appeal of vapes to children, and the subsequent number who go on to vape, is expected to reduce with the restriction of packaging presentation. Such restriction would therefore result in overall health benefits to our young people due to a reduction in vaping uptake and associated harms. Moreover, such a decrease in vaping uptake and associated usage among young people is recognised in the impact assessment as also being potentially beneficial for the environment because of a reduction in the anticipated litter from vape-related packaging. Indeed, a litter pick with volunteers from Sleaford a little while ago drew my attention to the harm that vape-related waste is having on our environment. Again, in considering the material of packaging, the Minister may want to think about any environmental hazard posed, which is something that he can mandate under clause 90(3)(d) to ensure that the packaging is to a standard that helps to reduce the effect on the environment. Furthermore, the impact assessment highlights that the illicit vape market has been increasing and suggests that it could be exacerbated if these powers were implemented. However, it could also be argued that more appropriate packaging restrictions could assist in distinguishing between compliant and illicit vape products, depending on how the regulations were brought forward. They could make it arguably more difficult to discretely stock, advertise or sell such illicit products, and easier to identify and tackle illegality in the sector. It is recognised that packaging-related restrictions are expected to reduce the number of children and adults vaping, thus reducing the profits for manufacturers and stockers because of packaging presentation. The impact assessment also sets out that such measures are not expected to prohibit or affect the abilities of vape consumers themselves in making choices based on their own preferences or in purchasing the products they wish to consume. If one is already a vape customer, or one is a smoker wishing to stop, packaging will not have an effect, but it may well reduce the likelihood that children start vaping, which is a good thing. Consumers are free to engage in purchasing and consuming such products as they wish, albeit that by being in different packaging, it is less appealing to children and young people. Although no studies have shown the real-world impact of standardised packaging for vaping products, evidence from experimental studies suggests that plain packaging may reduce the appeal of vaping products among young people. There is research in the impact assessment about standard olive-coloured packaging—I am not sure whether that is a green olive or a darker olive—in comparison with branded packaging. It found that young people aged 11 to 18 had a lower interest in trying vapes in standard packaging but there was no difference among adult respondents between the branded and plain standardised products. Research from King’s College London and Action on Smoking and Health shows that different effect, with young people being more likely to attracted by the packaging than adults. A recent study also looked at a cross-sectional online survey to explore interest in the perceived harms of vaping products when it comes to packaging. The study found that not only did young people aged 16 to 19 in England, Canada and the US find e-liquids in white or olive-coloured standardised packaging less appealing compared with those in branded vape packaging, but that they inaccurately perceived e-liquids in that standardised packaging as being equally or more harmful than smoking, compared with e-liquids in branded packaging. Again, there is evidence that packaging influences children’s decisions. If they look at something in a plain packet, they are more likely to think it is not good for them than if they see it in a packet with Mario Kart or a teddy bear on it. I know that is instinctive, but the evidence also bears it out, as seen in the Government’s impact assessment. I am interested to know how clause 90 differs from existing legislation, particularly on tobacco products. It is my understanding that under the Standardised Packaging of Tobacco Products Regulations 2015, which came into effect on 20 May 2017, all products—including cigarettes, rolling tobacco and snuff—must be sold in standard packaging. The use of logos, trademarks and branding has been severely restricted and tobacco packaging must display the product name in standard font and size without any distinctive logos, colours or images.

• 21 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I thank the Minister for that. I am grateful that he is looking for a new home for the regulation that more accurately reflects what is being done.

• 21 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  My hon. Friend is making a good point. I am sure he would agree that, essentially, there is no point in naming a responsible person for the company if that responsible person is not sufficiently able to pull the levers of power within the company if they find that something is not up to scratch. We need someone who is not in fear of being sacked if he or she raises concerns—somebody who is at a high level within the company.

• 21 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  On a point of order, Mr Dowd. Did you say 50 or 15? The reason I ask is that about 50 clauses remain to be discussed and about three days are still allocated to that purpose.

• 21 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I welcome the steps that the Minister is taking on social media platforms to discourage young people from vaping; that is a very welcome intervention. Given that he has appeared in LADbible articles, I am curious to know whether he will appear in the TikTok videos. I do not have a TikTok account, but it might almost be worth joining to watch them—I think that would be great. How does clause 94 relate to the advertising clauses, which we have not discussed yet but will discuss later? Presumably, if an influencer is receiving revenue, they are effectively advertising a product.

• 21 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  My hon. Friend is making a very good speech. Does he agree that the Minister will have a huge challenge in working out which flavours to choose, if he is going to choose from some? Perhaps he is deciding whether he has banana or cherry, but if we do not know whether the banana flavour or the cherry flavour is the least harmful to the individual, which do we know to recommend to the smoker who is trying to quit?

• 21 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  Let us look back to the issues of the Elfbar items that had, as I understand it, a higher number of milligrams per millilitre—certainly a higher nicotine content—than they were supposed to. If there is no penalty other than being removed from the register until the information is updated, could not someone less reputable say, “Well, I’ll put on what I want to put on; if I get caught, I will at that point say what is really in it and go straight back on the market”? Is a period of not being able to sell the product envisaged? Is a stiff fine envisaged? What is the penalty envisaged or will the register simply have to be updated?

• 21 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  Clause 93 is somewhat interestingly titled, but what does it do? Subsection (1) allows the Secretary of State to create regulations that concern “the nature and amount of the substances that may be released into the body of a person” using the following: tobacco products, tobacco related devices, herbal smoking products, cigarette papers, vaping products and nicotine products. Subsection (2) states that the regulations may impose “prohibitions, requirements or limitations” on the “production, importation or supply” of these products in “the course of business.” Subsection (3) clarifies that the regulations may specify how “the nature and amount of substances or emissions released by a product are to be determined” potentially by an authorised person designated by the Secretary of State. Again, the Minister may have comments on how the Secretary of State would choose such an individual. Subsection (4) specifies that that these regulations will also be “subject to the affirmative resolution procedure.” This means there will be a vote in Parliament. In relation to this, section 13 of the Tobacco and Related Products Regulations 2016 currently sets a maximum permitted emission level for cigarettes that are produced by the manufacturer for export in the UK. Section 36 of that regulation sets out product requirements for e-cigarettes and refill containers, including current maximum nicotine quantities. Paragraph 1403 of the impact assessment produced by the Government in relation to the Bill states, “Currently, to supply certain tobacco, herbal, and nicotine vape products on the…market you must first notify your product. Producers must provide data such as the name and contact details of the person who manufactures the product, a list of all ingredients contained in the product, emissions resulting from its use, as well as toxicological data and a declaration that the producer bears full responsibility for the quality and safety of the product when supplied.” In the UK, the EU tobacco products directive and the UK’s nicotine inhalation system regulations aim to control what substances are present in nicotine products. For example, e-liquids are capped at 20 mg per ml of nicotine strength, and that aims to reduce the addictive potential of vaping products. That said, I am aware of a scandal that broke in 2023 involving the widescale overfilling of vaping products by Elfbar, which required a media investigation to expose. I would be interested to know, first, how the new clause differs from previous legislation in its effect and, secondly, how the Minister intends to enforce it so that misdeeds such as the overfilling of vapes cannot occur again on the scale they have before. There are also questions about the amount of nicotine in things such as nicotine pouches, and there has been the suggestion of limits to those as well. I ask the Minister, when he is thinking about that in relation to regulations under clause 93, to consider that, although a normal cigarette reportedly contains between 8 mg and 20 mg of nicotine, the individual smoking the cigarette absorbs only a fraction of that—around 1 mg to 2 mg per cigarette. The suggestion that pouches contain 20 mg of nicotine would lead one to believe that the level is extremely high and would add to the addiction and the dependency, but the Minister should consider the limits on how much nicotine is in the nicotine pouch or other nicotine products in accordance with that. We would not wish to push an individual away from a product that is harmful and addictive on to another product that is possibly harmful and more addictive. I would also be interested to know how, if at all, the Government intend to exercise the powers in clause 93. There are several additives that could be reduced or removed from tobacco products with significant benefit to the smoker. I will give just two examples of chemicals that could be limited under the clause. Ammonia compounds, such as ammonium hydroxide, are used to enhance nicotine delivery to the smoker. Ammonia increases the pH of the smoke, making nicotine more readily absorbed by the lungs. This enhances the addictive properties of cigarettes by increasing the hit of the nicotine. Ammonia and its compounds are toxic, and exposure can cause respiratory problems, as well as irritation to the eyes throat. The use of ammonia compounds also contributes to the overall toxicity of the smoke, as ammonia can form nitrosamines, which are carcinogenic. Reducing or removing the ammonia compounds would not only mitigate these risks, but reduce the addictive potential of cigarettes by reducing the introduction of nicotine without changing their basic function. Butane is the second substance I want to talk about. Some Members may recall it as a lighter fluid, but it is sometimes used as a chemical accelerant to aid the burn rate of tobacco. Butane helps to maintain an even burn rate throughout the cigarette, ensuring it does not go out prematurely—potentially risky. Butane is toxic, causing particular damage to the lungs and to the nervous system when inhaled. The removal of butane or its replacement with less harmful alternatives would likely not change the cigarette’s function significantly; the burn rate can still be controlled, but the risk of exposure to toxic gases will be reduced. I urge the Minister, as we look to create a smoke-free generation, not to forget those individuals in society who are already addicted to this dreadful habit, and to do what he can to ameliorate the risks to them, either by reducing the harm of the cigarette itself or by encouraging people to quit the habit. The other question I have for the Minister with regard to clause 93 is: what are the penalties? If someone breaks the rules, if a business is found to be breaching the regulations for how much nicotine is allowed in a product or the concentration, or for how big the tank is or what the components are, what will be the penalties? Companies, largely, will be incurring the penalties, as we have talked about before. The deterrent may need to be quite a large fine in order to make a breach not worth their while.

• 21 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I would rather the Minister said that it was a flavour I have commonly referred to than a favourite flavour, because I honestly cannot tell him what a unicorn’s milk tastes like.

• 21 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I am suggesting that there is a difference between regulating a product as a medicine, which requires stringent steps, and a statement of what the product does, the effect it is going to have on the body, the claims made about it, and why it is safe, or safer than having the problem that it is treating. Some drugs make people quite unwell but people are willing to trade off being unwell for being cured. For example, cancer drugs make people very poorly at times, but it is considered better to have chemotherapy than cancer, because cancer leads to fatality. That process lets a consumer know that the product has been robustly tested and that the quality is there. On an ongoing basis, someone is checking that the paracetamol bought from a supermarket contains the ingredients that it says it contains on the packet. This notification process does not do that. It says to a company, “Come along and tell us what’s in it. We’ll believe you. Thank you very much. We’re not going to check and we’ll hope it’s all right.” That is a weak process. It is not surprising that there is a weaker process for a consumer product than for a medical product. However, having it also done by the MHRA could lead consumers to believe that the vapes have gone through the first process and not the second process. I think that is misleading—some of the Minister’s hon. Friends are nodding vigorously—and was something brought up by the MHRA itself in response to, I think, my question. The MHRA answered that this could mislead consumers to think that it is medical regulation of vapes when it is not. There is only a point in having a register if it will be used to achieve something. Having a list of stuff does not make a great deal of difference if no one is going to check that the list is accurate, and I cannot see that there is any great step to say that the list is accurate. What comes with a register is important, as well as the register itself. The rationale, as I understand it, of the register is to support the compliant market by having products registered and shown to be meeting the regulations. Again, I understand that this registers that a company has said that it complies with the regulations but I cannot see where the provisions say that there is anyone checking. That may be something that the Minister will add, maybe in relation to later clauses. The aim of the register is to help to ensure legitimate products are available for sale, and to let retailers know what they are. When a retailer—a chap running a corner shop—wants to buy some of these products to sell, and he has a licence, and he has checked people’s ages under the provisions of the earlier clauses, and he wants to sell the product, he wants reassurance that the product is genuine and not illicit. Checking this register for that product would be a step that a reasonable retailer can take to check the product is legit, or at least said to be legit. Both industry and enforcement agencies have asked the Government to update the current notification systems. Although that was not part of the consultation process, I understand—and the Minister can perhaps clarify this—that subsequent consultation will be required to better inform the new registration system and its implementation. The Government would like to ensure that non-nicotine vapes and other nicotine products being sold in the UK market are subject to the current notification requirements of nicotine vapes. That is in line with the consultation undertaken by the previous Government in 2023, when the majority of responses were in favour of regulating all non-nicotine vapes and other nicotine products under a similar regulatory framework as nicotine vapes. Again, I ask the Minister to consider whether the MHRA is the best organisation to be providing that service if it is not doing what most of the public may consider it is doing? At the moment, if enforcement agencies find that the product is notified as not being compliant with regulations, they are unable to update the notification accordingly. The new powers will ensure that the register of products can be updated, and therefore that items can be removed if they are not meeting requirements. To ensure that we can effectively monitor the products and support enforcement, it is necessary for the Government to have the power to introduce the registration regime. I am not against the principle of that, but I think it needs to be well thought through. Perhaps it will be when it comes to the regulations in the statutory instrument—when we no doubt meet again. Adding regulations in general is not necessarily a welcome thing, but in that case it may be useful. There will be some costs to industry, due to measures including product registration requirements, particularly on non-nicotine vapes and other nicotine products. That may put off producers with lower standards and may improve the general safety standard of the industry, but it is also possible that those with lower standards will not bother, so the Minister needs to explain what the plan is for that—and also the plans for factories. The registration requirements will also mean that consumers can access more information on non-nicotine vapes and other nicotine products. I ask the Minister: will consumers have access to the information on what all the ingredients are? Will there be thought given to people with allergies who wish to use those products? There may be a cost to companies that have to request information from their suppliers and gather existing data on non-nicotine vapes and other nicotine products. Companies will also have to spend resources on completing the required paperwork. Based on the impact assessment for the Tobacco and Related Products Regulations, I understand that the Government expect those tasks to take between 10 and 15 hours per notification, plus or minus any translations or translation costs that may be required. Given that any companies notifying the UK will be selling or operating in the UK, translation costs should be negligible. Therefore, it will be 10 to 15 hours work, plus currently a small fee of £150 to notify of a nicotine-containing vape product. There is also a fee for tobacco and herbal products set at £200, a fee for any modifications at £100, and a further annual reporting fee of £100. A new fee will be imposed to register products, which will likely be in line with the current fees for tobacco, herbal and nicotine-vape products. Non-nicotine vape products and other nicotine products that were not subject to notification of fees will be charged a fee to register, with the amount to be determined through further consultation. That is another case where essentially what is happening is that the Government are taking a lot of power to do things, but not being terribly explicit about what they intend to do with them. While the Minister said that he is going to go like the clappers, we still have no clear indication of how fast those clappers are clapping away. For potential new information requirements, there may be additional costs with acquiring that information. Some manufacturers may already collect new information, in which case there will be no additional costs other than staff time spent collating and submitting. Those costs may be more burdensome for smaller companies. The changes will be achieved through secondary legislation, which will be subject to consultation to determine what information should be notified, how the registration will operate, the process for any non-publication of notification and the level of fees associated with costs administering the system. The impact assessment says that the Bill will also give the industry enough time for businesses to make any changes before the future regulations come into force. Again, the Government are saying that they are going to give enough time, and they are going to go like the clappers. But how fast are the clappers going and how much time is enough for industry? I still do not think we have any idea. I have a couple of questions. In subsection (3)(a), where the regulations make a provision about who is to keep the register, will the Government clarify what that Government body or third-party private entity will be? Will it be the MHRA, or will it be something else? Subsection (3)(b) gives the Secretary of State power to regulate eligibility for registration. There is room for debate about what constitutes eligibility and whether small businesses or new entrants will face excessive regulatory hurdles. The power may also raise concerns about what happens if a product or business fails to meet the requirements. Will they be shut out of the market? Will they be forced to make changes? How will that work? Paragraphs (c) and (d) of subsection (4) require producers to provide information about potential risks to human health and substances released by products, but the wording is relatively broad and could raise questions about how tobacco and nicotine product manufacturers will assess and report risks. What level of scientific evidence will be required? How will they balance transparency with proprietary information or concerns about trade secrets? What will happen if the product risk assessment is disputed, and how will disputes be resolved? We may have a situation where the vape manufacturer says that their product and the flavourings are safe but the evidence from medical professionals suggests otherwise. Will they provide the information themselves or will they fund other people to do it? Will that be done under a general pool, or will it be specific to that product at that time? How much influence will the industry have over the results? If we ask a specific question, we will get closer to the answer we want. In the case of vaping products specifically, the health risks are not yet fully known. It is fair to say that there is some debate on the matter, even among respected authorities. The American Lung Association claims that vaping is linked to a condition called popcorn lung, and the Harvard Medical School lists popcorn lung under the risks of vaping. However, the NHS and Cancer Research assert that vaping does not cause popcorn lung, so there is a dispute. Clearly, more research is needed, but in the meantime how will the regulations in the clause address an issue like this? Subsection (5) introduces the idea of fees for registration, including provisions that allow the fees collected to reflect the cost of regulation. It raises issues about how the fees may affect small and independent producers in a market that is taxed. Do we have any indication about what the fees may be? Could the cost of registration become prohibitive for small companies and push them out of the market? Will there be mechanisms to ensure that the fees are not too burdensome for newer and small businesses, or is the intention to limit the number of products on the market by making the fees higher so that we get a smaller number of products and are therefore more able to regulate and assess what is in each of them?

• 21 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  We had a little search at lunch time and found some examples that may contravene the law. Can the Minister advise to where we should refer those for enforcement?

• 21 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  This may be the first aspect of the Labour manifesto that we can trust, so perhaps there is something to celebrate.

• 21 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  Does the Minister want to comment on the range of flavours available, and whether he thinks that has any impact?

• 21 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  My hon. Friend is probably much younger than me, but does he remember the sweets that were like little cigarettes, from when we were children?