Caroline Johnson MP: speeches

Speeches

• 21 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Ninth sitting) · Hansard source

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  Will the Minister give way?

• 21 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Ninth sitting) · Hansard source

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  Is it not also the case that the Crown is extremely unlikely to wish to sell tobacco products, vaping products, herbal smoking products or indeed anything else covered by the Bill, or to advertise them, since members of the royal family attribute such importance to public health and have, sadly, suffered from ill health themselves in recent times? They have done a lot of work with various charities in relation to health, including on cancer and other conditions, so it seems unlikely that these provisions would be required.

• 21 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Ninth sitting) · Hansard source

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  In a previous sitting I raised that in the last couple of years there have been events within Parliament at which free vapes were given out to Members and staff. Would this clause, given that it applies to the Crown, extend to all palaces? Could such events also still continue?

• 21 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Ninth sitting) · Hansard source

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  Clause 54 will extend tobacco legislation to cover herbal smoking products, which are products made from plant material and intended for smoking that do not contain tobacco. It will amend section 4 of the Tobacco and Primary Medical Services (Scotland) Act, which governs the sale of tobacco products to individuals under 18, by inserting “herbal smoking product” after “tobacco product” in subsection (1). This will mean that the sale of herbal smoking products is subject to the same restrictions as tobacco products and is prohibited to persons under 18. The clause will also amend section 4C of the 2010 Act, which deals with the sale of tobacco-related products by persons under 18, by adding “herbal smoking product” so that individuals under 18 are also prohibited from selling herbal smoking products. This is distinct from the ability to buy them, for which there will be a rolling age; it applies to the selling of these products. The clause will also modify section 6 of the Act, which addresses the purchase of tobacco products on behalf of individuals under 18, otherwise known as proxy purchasing. It will amend subsection (1) by inserting “herbal smoking product” after “tobacco product”, making it illegal for anyone to purchase herbal smoking products on behalf of individuals under 18. Finally, the clause will insert into section 35 a definition for herbal smoking products. This was covered in clause 48 and clause 1; clause 54 will add it to Scottish legislation. It specifies that a herbal smoking product is one that is made entirely or partially of vegetable matter and that is intended to be smoked, but that does not contain tobacco. Given our previous debate, these seem reasonable changes to make.

• 21 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Ninth sitting) · Hansard source

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  This is quite a chunky group of clauses. Clause 48 provides a series of definitions that are to be used to interpret part 1. That is important; if the law is to be enforced, we must understand what the law means by each phrase it uses. The phrase “cigarette papers” is self-explanatory. It means anything that is “used for encasing tobacco products or herbal smoking products for the purpose of enabling them to be smoked”. We talked about cigarette papers previously. Likewise, “herbal smoking product” “means a product consisting wholly or partly of vegetable matter and intended to be smoked but not containing tobacco”. That is fairly straightforward. The phrase “medical device” is important, and I will explain why in a moment. The clause refers to the Medical Devices Regulations 2002 (S.I. 2002/618), which state that a medical device is “any instrument, apparatus, appliance, material or other article, whether used alone or in combination, together with any…software…necessary for its proper application, which— (a) is intended by the manufacturer to be used for human beings for the purpose of— (i) diagnosis, prevention, monitoring, treatment or alleviation of disease, (ii) diagnosis, monitoring, treatment, alleviation of or compensation for an injury or handicap, (iii) investigation, replacement or modification of the anatomy or of a physiological process, or (iv) control of conception; and (b) does not achieve its principal intended action in or on the human body by pharmacological, immunological or metabolic means, even if it is assisted in its function by such means, and includes devices intended to administer a medicinal product”— this is part of why it is relevant— “or which incorporate as an integral part a substance which, if used separately, would be a medicinal product and which is liable to act upon the body with action ancillary to that of the device.” That is relevant to clause 10 onwards, on nicotine products. In evidence on 7 January, Dr Laura Squire, from the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency, told the Committee that one vape product received an MHRA medicines licence in 2015, but was never marketed. Theoretically, others could be marketed in the future. They would be exempt under the definition provided in clause 48, which I have just explained.

• 21 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  Further to that point of order, Mr Dowd. I am confused about what the Opposition wish to achieve— [ Interruption. ] Sorry, the Government. It was the Government’s programme motion, which the Government produced and in which the Government suggested that we had a certain number of days and sittings. The Government had the numbers to decide how many sittings were allocated. Having allocated all those sittings, why have the Government suddenly decided that they want to complete the Bill in Committee three days early?

• 21 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  May I clarify, Mr Dowd, that you wish amendments 6 to 9 and clauses 96 to 98 stand part to be debated together?

• 21 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  The hon. Gentleman is shaking his head. Clause 96(1) grants the Secretary of State the authority to make regulations requiring producers or importers of products including tobacco products, tobacco related devices, herbal smoking products, cigarette papers, vaping products and nicotine products to provide information about these products to specified persons. The regulations may also govern the publication of this information. Subsection (2) outlines specific types of information that may be required, including details about the ingredients, the risks posed by the product, the emissions or substances released by the product, the producer’s operations and any individual nominated by the producer to be responsible for the product. Subsection (2) also specifies that the regulations may also require sales data or market research relevant to the product. If subsection (3) already requires this, I do not think that providing that data to the general public is necessarily something there is precedent for, but I may be corrected on that. Subsection (4) affirms that the regulations will be subject to the affirmative procedure, meaning that they will go to a vote of a Committee of the House. The provisions in subsection (2)(b) on sales data go back to the point by the hon. Member for Dartford and raise questions about how the data will be used. Could the information be used to unfairly favour certain companies or enable them to gain an advantage over competitors? There are privacy concerns to consider. How will sensitive business information such as sales strategies, pricing models or consumer preferences be protected? While the Government want to limit the number of people who smoke and deter smokers from smoking, by not banning cigarettes outright they have given their indication that cigarettes are a lawful product to be bought by those who smoke already and who are over the age of 18 and anyone who chooses to smoke who was born on or before 1 January 2009. Having allowed businesses lawfully to exist, they should be allowed lawfully to get on with their job. Subsection (3) suggests that the regulations will detail when and how information must be provided. That raises questions about the practicalities of the process. How frequently will the information need to be submitted? Will it be annually—in which case, how useful will it be? Or will it be quarterly, or more often—in which case, how burdensome will it be? Will there be specific deadlines? What penalties might businesses face if they fail to comply? Moreover, the process by which businesses submit their data and the verification of the information provided will need to be transparent to ensure that businesses are adhering to the rules consistently. Will there be regular audits or checks to ensure that the data is accurate and truthful? The information required under this clause could provide valuable data for public health officials, researchers and policymakers to monitor trends in product composition, usage pattern and health impacts. However, a critical question is how effectively this information will be used to achieve tangible health outcomes. In other words, is it collecting information for the sake of collecting information, or is it collecting information that will actually be beneficial and useful? Will it help regulators to identify new risks or trends in the market? Will it support more targeted interventions to reduce smoking and vaping-related harm? It is worth considering how information related to new products such as novel vaping devices or alternative nicotine delivery systems will be evaluated and whether the data will be used to inform better regulations in future. I suppose there is an argument that if particular flavours, for example, are prevalent in a particular area and there is an immediate harm in that area that correlates with a particular flavouring, that is a sign that there is a problem with that flavouring. But in practice, since we have been given medical evidence that suggests that any changes are usually over a period of time and fashions change over time, it will be very difficult to weed that out of a huge amount of information. It is therefore difficult to understand exactly how the information will be used. I am sure the Minister will be able to provide further information in that regard. Clause 97 looks at studies that might be required. Subsection (1) authorises the Secretary of State to make regulations that require a producer of a relevant product to conduct a study on a product or an ingredient within it. The producer may be required to submit a report on the study’s findings to a specific person. That may be helpful, but if a company is asked to provide information on a product that it sells and the information is detrimental to the prospect of further sales, how impartial can that be considered, how much will the consumer trust that information and how much point is there in doing it? Will the Minister consider whether the study should be done independently rather than by the producer? If so, how does he envisage that working? If the producer of the product commissions the report, the way in which the question is phrased, the way in which the study is designed and other things can influence the result that is achieved. That may lead to a bias in the study so that the Government will not get the information they really want. Subsection (2) defines a relevant product as a tobacco product, a tobacco-related device, a herbal smoking product, cigarette papers, a vaping product or a nicotine product. Subsection (3) outlines the specific provisions that may be included in the regulations. They include determining when and how the study should be conducted and the report submitted, specifying the questions that the study must address and defining the content and structure of the report. Subsection (4) specifies that the regulations made under this clause will be subject to the affirmative resolution procedure, meaning that they must be approved by Parliament. The impact of the studies is assessed in paragraphs 1418 to 1426 of the Government’s impact assessment. The background to that is that the TRPR currently requires nicotine vape manufacturers to submit toxicological data regarding the product’s ingredients, including its ingredients in printed form, when the chemical composition may change, and emissions, referring to the effects on the health of customers when inhaled and considering things such as the addictive nature of the product. Currently, producers of non-nicotine containing vapes and other nicotine products such as nicotine pouches are not required to test their products or the ingredients contained within. Those products fall under the General Product Safety Regulations 2005, under which the only obligation is that a producer must supply a generally safe product. Therefore, manufacturers of vaping products should carry out tests on their products to determine how the device works, how it delivers nicotine and how the ingredients react with each other to produce certain emissions—that is important to protect consumers. In some instances, we will see the use of new chemicals and ingredients that are not well researched or well tested. If a manufacturer wishes to put such an ingredient in its products, it could be required to perform studies on its safety. As I said before, it may be that the industry does that itself initially, but there must be a provision to allow the Government to commission independent research to avoid biases in that information. Manufactured cigarettes are the most thoroughly researched tobacco product and also the most uniform. We know much less about other products, such as novel tobacco products, non-nicotine products and smokeless tobacco. They are a hugely diverse range of products and much less well studied. We currently depend entirely on manufacturers and lack the capacity to verify industry claims. Smokeless products are of particular concern; they are often produced by small and medium-sized enterprises in low and middle-income states and then imported. There will be an impact to industry from the cost of carrying out a study of their products and ingredients and submit the study to the relevant body. If the test for menthol was added to the standard routine testing for tar, nicotine and carbon monoxide—TNCO—currently conducted on all cigarette brands, it would be expected to impose only a small additional cost. However, any additional tests that regulations require manufacturers to conduct would also have additional costs. If manufacturers have that product safety information for all the chemicals in their products, including for vapes, which have lots of different flavours—the long-term effects of vaping those chemicals are in many cases unknown, but suspected in some cases to be harmful—how will the Minister decide which chemicals to test? Will he require independent testing of all chemicals that are used in the vapes? That would take time: it is very difficult to work out what something will do over 20 years without waiting 20 years to find out. I remember that when mobile phones were new there was a rumour that they might cause types of brain cancer. Around 20 years ago, I entered the cohort study of mobile phone use and health, or COSMOS, in which data was—and may still be—collected on my telephone usage and provided to university researchers in London. They measure my usage and periodically ask where I keep my telephone—whether in my front or back pocket, in a bag, or wherever—and whether I hold my phone to my ear when I am talking or hold it in front of me, on speaker. They also look at my medical records to see whether that usage has had any effect on my brain, and how many people who are in the study have subsequently got cancer. Does the Minister envisage encouraging the setting up of such long-term studies to check on the outcomes from vaping, for example? There would also be a cost to developing the body that is required to review the studies that the producers of these products submit. For context, the extra cost of testing 12 tobacco products for menthol was around £50,000 per year. The cost to the relevant body of additional tests required by the regulations may be in a similar region. Those regulations would be subject to consultation, but has the Minister considered that the fewer flavours there are, the fewer chemicals that he needs to pay to have tested, or that he needs to encourage business to pay to have tested? The range of flavours means that there are more chemicals out there potentially needing investigation. Clause 97 does not refer to conflicts of interest and does not require independent, objective experts—perhaps the Minister intends to include those in regulation. In instances in the past when tobacco companies conducted studies through their own research groups, they provided—perhaps unsurprisingly—remarkably optimistic conclusions about the hazards of smoking. I hope the Minister is not expecting such companies to mark their own homework again. The regulations should specify the qualifications of those conducting the studies and the methodologies that they should follow to help ensure that studies are scientifically valid and unbiased. Subsection (3)(c) allows regulations to define the content and structure of reports that producers must submit. Although that provides flexibility to the regulators, it could also lead to confusion if the requirements for report structure and content were not clearly defined. Will there be a standardised format for reports, and how detailed will they need to be? Should the reports be publicly accessible? Will they remain confidential to the producers and regulatory bodies, or will they be more widely published, as the hon. Member for Dartford suggested other data should be? These questions are important and the Minister’s intentions are important, as unclear guidance could result in inconsistent reporting across producers or even incomplete or misleading reports. The primary goal of requiring studies and reports is to provide regulators with information that could be used to improve public health outcomes, such as understanding the health risks associated with smoking, vaping or nicotine products. It is essential to question how this information will be used once submitted. Will it be analysed promptly and used to update product regulations to inform public health campaigns? If studies highlight emerging risks or issues, how quickly will regulators be able to act on the findings? The impact of those studies will largely depend on how efficiently the regulatory system uses that data to protect public health and respond to new threats. Are we collecting data for the sake of collecting data, so that the information is there, or are the resources going to be provided to look at the data, analyse it and act upon it? Otherwise, we may end up in a situation where we knew the answer but we did not see the wood for the trees. Finally, clause 98 talks about the responsible person. Subsection (1) allows the Secretary of State to make regulations that require producers of tobacco products, tobacco related devices, herbal smoking products, cigarette papers, vaping products or nicotine products to nominate an individual who will be responsible for the information that must be provided under the regulations we have discussed under clauses 95 and 97. Subsection (2) provides that the regulations may include provisions on who is eligible to be nominated as a responsible person. That could include requirements for the nominee to be a resident of the United Kingdom, or to have another connection to the country. Subsection (3) mandates that the regulations must prohibit a producer from nominating an individual without first obtaining consent, which seems to me very clear and straightforward. Subsection (4) clarifies that regulations made under this section are subject to the affirmative resolution procedure, requiring Parliamentary approval before becoming law. The clause allows the Secretary of State to define who is eligible to be nominated as a responsible person. It is essential to ask whether there are any clear criteria for that eligibility. For instance, must the individual be a senior company representative, public health expert or legal representative? The definition of eligibility could significantly impact the effectiveness and accountability of the regulation. Subsection (2) of the clause mentions that the regulations may require the nominated responsible person to be “resident in, or to have another connection to, the United Kingdom.” What exactly constitutes a connection to the UK? One of my aunts moved to the States when she got married and she lived there and had her family there. Although she has sadly passed on, I have cousins in the States. Is that enough of a connection? What counts as a connection? Is it enough for the person to have a business address in the UK, or do they need to be a UK citizen or a UK taxpayer? Do they need to live in the UK for a certain period? This is particularly important when considering that many of the largest players in the vape industry, such as Elfbar and Lost Mary, are Chinese companies and are headquartered abroad. To my understanding, Elfbar has used its geographical distance from the UK to stay at arm’s length from a range of controversies caused by their products, not least the selling of vapes with illegally high levels of nicotine and the use of TikTok influencers with large followings among children to promote their products, which I am pleased to hear the Minister will be countering with his own adverts. The clause specifies that the regulations prohibit a producer from nominating an individual without their consent. What process will be put in place to ensure that consent is genuinely obtained and documented? Will there be a formal registration or reporting system for nominees, and how will we ensure that the nominee knows—and that we know that the nominee knows—that they have been nominated? Will the person responsible be held personally liable for product safety or compliance failure if the product manufacturer fails to meet certain standards? Will it be the responsible person facing the fine, penalty or other consequences, the company, or both? That is an important consideration given both the nature of the penalties and also the person’s willingness to be nominated. The clause covers a broad range of products, including tobacco products, tobacco-related devices, vaping products, herbal smoking products and nicotine products. Will the nominated responsible person be expected to oversee compliance with specific regulations for each product category, or will there be a single standard compliance regulation for all? I think primarily of cases where large companies have major stakes in both the tobacco and vaping industries.

• 21 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I believe before we were interrupted we were discussing clause 92, which relates to flavouring provisions. The Tobacco and Related Products Regulations currently restrict certain ingredients, including colourings, caffeine and taurine, but do not restrict any combinations of flavour or flavour types. Multiple systematic reviews have found that a majority of young people are more likely to initiate vaping through flavoured vapes. The use of vapes with flavours traditionally not found in tobacco products, such as fruit and coffee, is higher among youths and young adults than older adults, highlighting that restricting flavours in vapes may reduce vaping prevalence among youths by preventing initiation. The Government’s impact assessment for clause 92 estimates that restricting the flavour of e-liquids to tobacco only would affect a large proportion of people who vape. Among children, just 4.5% of those who vape most frequently choose tobacco or menthol-flavoured liquids. A further 0.5% reported not using flavour at all. That means that around 95% of children who vape could be affected in some way by the option of regulating the flavours of vapes. The impact assessment goes on to note the relation- ship between a restriction on flavours and littering. Paragraph 1023 states that “research commissioned by Material Focus found that almost 5 million disposable vapes are either littered or thrown away in general waste every week, equivalent to around 260 million a year. If the estimated reduction in demand for vaping products from Nova Scotia in Canada from restricting flavours of 12.15% is also seen in the UK, we could expect a similar reduction in the amount of vapes that are littered or thrown away in general waste. This would be equivalent to around 600,000 fewer vapes disposed of each week and around 30 million fewer each year.” I understand that the Government have moved to ban single-use vapes. Nevertheless, the principle stands that having fewer flavours leads to fewer changes of product, and therefore to less litter. There is also an impact assessment of enforcement of flavour restrictions. Paragraphs 1070 and 1071 of the impact assessment state: “Any restriction of vape flavours could require additional enforcement activity to ensure that non-compliant vapes do not remain on the market… There is also evidence from the US that enforcement of any flavour restrictions is important to ensure that it has an impact on the flavours that are used by people that vape. For example, a study based on the impact restricting flavours had on vape use in three US states found that most respondents to the survey continued to use vapes with flavours that had been banned, and out of them, over 45% had purchased them in-state stores.” That leaves us with a difficulty. If flavours are banned but illicit products are made to look like they have different flavours in them, it will be quite difficult for enforcement officers to work out the contents of any given vape. However, as the Minister has said, the Bill only provides a regulation-making power; there are no enforcement costs arising from this particular measure, and it would be the responsibility of each local authority in England to enforce the regulations made using the powers conferred by the Bill. This matter must therefore be considered further. When writing regulations, the Minister must ensure that they are enforceable and that the necessary resources are made available to local authorities. In its written evidence, Cancer Research UK highlights the importance of considering the motivations of smokers wanting to quit alongside the clear requirement to steer non-smokers away from beginning to vape. It states: “It is important that there is a holistic approach to flavours. If the UK Government is changing the packaging and display of vapes (through other powers in the Bill), this will go a long way to reduce the appeal of vapes. Therefore, the Government may not need to go as far when restricting flavours. We believe that restricting the way flavours are described, rather than banning actual flavours could help reduce the appeal to young people with limited negative impact on adults who smoke. At the very least, CRUK believes that mint, menthol and fruit should remain available as there is evidence that these help adults quit smoking.” One of the challenges the Minister will face if he is to restrict flavours rather than banning them is which he chooses to retain. The evidence that we have heard so far is that different chemicals are used to create different flavours, which seems somewhat obvious, but it is not clear that all companies use the same chemicals to make the same flavour, or the same apparent flavour, and it is not clear which chemicals may be harmful when inhaled over a long period of time. Strawberries are eaten quite safely by most people but inhaling one is very dangerous. We know from the chief medical officer that inhalation, as a vector of bringing a substance into the body, can be more damaging than eating it. How will the Minister choose which flavours to keep, if he is going to do so? The other reason why I disagree to an extent with Cancer Research UK is that, when I asked people in the industry directly why they need flavours, they said, “Because it helps people to continue using vapes.” I asked them what their purpose is and they said, “If somebody is smoking, their taste buds are affected by the smoking. Therefore, their ability to taste and smell things is not as great as a non-smoker.” That means that when they stop smoking and start vaping, which we want them to do, they realise after a couple of weeks that tobacco vapes taste awful and, as such, they stop using them—and that is a good thing. They decide that they do not like the taste of tobacco and so stop using the product. That is the intention of nicotine replacement therapy: the smoker starts the therapy, they continue for a short period and then they stop, after which point they are not addicted to nicotine or using anything. It was clear from speaking to the industry representatives that individuals will begin using vapes for the flavour. If they do not like one flavour, they will go on to a different one, but they will then continue to use the product as it is more pleasant than a tobacco-flavoured one. Instead of moving them from being a cigarette smoker, to a vaper, to a non-user of nicotine, flavoured vapes will move them from being a cigarette smoker, to a vaper—and there they will stay. For the industry, they have not swapped to stop; they have swapped to continue paying the money and making the profit. I can see why that is the industry’s intention, but it is clearly not the Government’s intention or the right thing for the individual’s health. I think that is an important consideration and I would be interested to hear the Minister’s views on it. In its evidence, Action on Smoking and Health talks about flavour descriptors, and it is certainly true that, where flavours are retained, the descriptors will be important. ASH says that gummy bears and unicorn shake are not acceptable, and it goes on: “In New Zealand they have set out in regulations which words can be used to describe flavours, removing descriptions such as Cotton-Candy and Bubble-Gum and replacing them with more generic flavour descriptions.” Again, it comes back to the problem of what is in each individual flavour, which ones should be kept—if any at all—and why. The evidence from ASH continues: “Manufacturers must choose a maximum of two flavour descriptor words from an approved flavour list. The approved flavour list should limit the descriptors which are most popular among young people. An alternative to the New Zealand approach would be to replace product names with alpha numeric codes…For example, caramel tobacco flavour e-liquid refills can be bought garishly branded with a cartoon character on the front called Momo Salt Caramel Tobacco. Alternatively a very similar tobacco caramel vanilla salt e-liquid can be bought in plain packaging with an alphanumeric code of RY6, with the flavour components in the detail rather than the product name. Such an approach could be mandated.” Has the Minister considered people who have allergies to all these different flavours? Has he considered whether the details of what each vape liquid contains should be put very clearly on the packaging, so that if anyone has an allergy, which can in some cases be life-threatening, they are aware of what chemicals they are using?

• 21 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I understand and support what the hon. Gentleman is trying to achieve. He seeks to ensure that individuals who smoke can be encouraged to quit, and to look at where products are sold more frequently as a way of trying to do that, but I wonder whether this data is, in effect, already collected by survey, and whether it would be a burden on businesses to require them to provide sales data. Does he envisage that the tobacco and vape companies themselves would provide data on which retailers they have supplied? Depending on how much stock a retailer is holding, that will not necessarily tell him how much has been sold. Or does he envisage that every corner shop would submit data to the Government? How much would it cost to process that data, and would it really tell us things we do not already know?

• 21 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  Is it not right that in the past, when increased tobacco regulations have been made, the black market has shrunk with the overall market?

• 21 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. The aim of the regulations that were introduced to remove sweets from immediately adjacent to tills was to discourage children from taking sweets and pestering their parents at the till. That was part of a drive to reduce obesity levels, but the sad thing is that in many places those products have been replaced by vapes, which are more harmful to youngsters than sweets were. To the hon. Gentleman’s point, we have seen that putting tobacco displays out of sight of children can help to reduce products’ attractiveness. Clauses 13 and 14 provide for display regulations in England and Wales—I cannot remember the clause numbers for Scotland and Northern Ireland, but those clauses also exist in the Bill. The clauses provide for displays to do exactly what the hon. Gentleman says: to ensure that children are not enticed through the display of these brightly coloured products. To return to packaging, research has shown that graphic health warnings—particularly some of the graphic pictures—on cigarette packs can increase smokers’ awareness of the health risks and motivate some to quit. The larger and more vivid the warning, the more likely it is to have an impact, with some studies suggesting that plain packaging, combined with graphic warnings, can lead to higher levels of cessation. That is the effect of tobacco packaging, but we now need to look at vapes. Now that vapes are so commonly used by children, the question is, what effect will vape packaging have? In recent years, research and public opinion surveys have shed light on the potential harm caused by the packaging of e-cigarettes and related products. The Government call for evidence on youth vaping published in 2023 found that many children were drawn to vaping products due to the bright colours, eye-catching designs and child-friendly images on the packaging. Those designs, which included cartoon characters and fun and vibrant logos, have led to concerns about vaping becoming mainstream and appealing to younger audiences who have never smoked. We need to remember that, in theory, vaping is a stop-smoking device. The industry also tells us that it is—at least in theory—not trying to market vapes to non-smokers and children. However, that appears to be the effect of the marketing that it has done, and the use of packaging to target, or seemingly target, young people has become a concern for many health professionals and lawmakers and for the public and parents alike. Research published by the Journal of the American Medical Association Network has reinforced those concerns. It showed that standardised packaging for vaping products, which reduces or eliminates brand imagery, could significantly decrease their appeal to young people. Interestingly, it did not seem to reduce the appeal of e-cigarettes to adult smokers. That suggests that although branding might attract young non-smokers, it does not play a critical role in attracting those who are already smokers or who are trying to quit—I did wonder whether that is because a plain packet is more enticing for those who are used to a packet with pictures of diseased lungs on it. It would also seem that colours are not necessary for adult smokers. Therefore, according to that research, we can bring in clause 90, without any concern that it will deter smokers from quitting, and in the knowledge that it may prevent children from starting to vape. One study, which was particularly revealing, was designed to explore the association between different types of e-cigarette packaging—fully branded versus standardised—and the level of interest in trying e-cigarettes among youth and adults in Great Britain. Specifically, the researchers sought to determine whether standard packaging that removes brand imagery and uses a plain colour scheme could reduce the appeal of e-cigarettes to young people without diminishing the appeal to adults who may be using them as a smoking cessation aid. That research is particularly relevant in the context of public health policy, because the Government have been considering measures to reduce the attractiveness of e-cigarettes to young people, while encouraging their use as a cessation tool among adult smokers. The study focused on young people aged 11 to 18 and on adults aged 18 or over. It was conducted in 2021 and involved 2,469 young people and 12,046 adults. They were randomly assigned to view one of three kinds of packaging: fully branded e-cigarette packaging, for control; white standardised packaging with brand names; or green standard packaging with brand names. The experimental design allowed the researchers to compare the level of interest in trying e-cigarettes under those different conditions. The colour of the packets, and the fact that the researchers chose a white one and a green one, are interesting. The Committee was given evidence about which colour should be chosen. Some people suggested that black or a very drab colour, as is used for cigarettes, might give the message that vapes are as dangerous as cigarettes, which may not be the case for current smokers.

• 21 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  We have talked a bit this evening about social media companies and the production on social media by influencers of what are in essence adverts, together with the difficulties in imposing any regulations on that. Does that not mean that, if all this data were published as the hon. Member for Dartford suggests—with great intentions—we could end up in a situation in which we are informing the industry exactly where they should target next with their social media posts? We all know that those can be directed to certain geographies.

• 21 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  Can my hon. Friend illustrate whether there is any evidence suggesting that, as the result of plain packaging, consumers are less able to identify whether they have the right product in their hand as they leave the shop?

• 21 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  If the Government Whip is happy, we will keep going. As well as cigars and cigarettes, smokeless tobacco products such as chewing tobacco and snuff became available in various flavours, including mint, apple and peach. These products targeted those who preferred an alternative to smoking while still seeking the satisfaction of nicotine. Flavoured smokeless products, in particular, gained popularity among younger users because of their sweet flavours and more discreet use. From the 1990s onwards we have seen an acceleration in the marketing of flavoured nicotine products, particularly those aimed at younger people. At this time, the tobacco industry shifted focus towards expanding its consumer base by targeting young people through advertising and product innovation. Flavoured cigarettes, cigars and smokeless tobacco became a key part of the strategy, with marketing campaigns emphasising the fun, sweet flavours. Notable products that emerged were fruit and dessert-flavoured cigarettes, often marketed in coloured packaging designed to appeal to younger, fashion-conscious consumers. Brands such as Marlboro, Camel and Newport produced sweet, fruity flavoured cigarettes including cherry, vanilla and grape varieties. Tobacco companies also started adding candy-like flavours such as sour apple and berry to smokeless products. The quest for flavoured products is part of a broader marketing effort to make tobacco use more socially acceptable and less intimidating. These products were seen by some as more approachable, less harsh and more in line with consumer taste, whereas sugary and fruity flavours dominated the food and beverage industry. Recognising the role of flavoured cigarettes in widening the appeal of smoking, various countries began outlawing them in the 2010s. In 2016, flavoured cigarettes, including menthol cigarettes, were banned across the European Union and in the UK in response to the European tobacco products directive. In response to that directive, the tobacco industry sought new ways to circumvent the ban on flavoured products and to continue to appeal to customers. These methods included introducing flavoured filters and flavoured papers for those who hand rolled cigarettes. Menthol papers and filters are widely accessible from retailers across the UK, both in store and online. British shoppers can also access, on websites such as Amazon, a gallery of flavoured cigarette papers including apple, cherry, peaches and cream—including ones with pictures of apples or peaches on them—as well as a few old favourites familiar to those in the vaping industry, such as chocolate, liquorice, bubble gum and cotton candy. One may almost forget they are smoking tobacco—perhaps that is the point. No discussion of flavours would be complete without mentioning vapes. With the advent of vapes in the 21st century, we have seen an eruption of flavours on to the market, sometimes of the most implausible kind, the unicorn milkshake referred to by the Minister being an example—I have certainly never seen a unicorn or its milk. The standard menthol and fruit flavours are popular, but many more unusual flavours lurk in the dark corners of the vape market, including butter, roast chicken, garlic, tuna, black peppercorn, bacon and Worcestershire sauce. There are websites containing reviews of those flavours—some are not terribly popular, but there are lots of different flavours available. While some of these are obviously more novel flavours, there has also been a rise in flavours with clear appeal to children and seemingly little appeal to adults, such as candy floss, fruit loops, milkshake and bubble gum. If that sounds too grown up, I understand that the vape market also offers not just unicorn milkshake, but unicorn blood, which sounds very sad, as well as honey bear and rainbow candy. Online, one can easily find vapes flavoured like specific sweets, such as Skittles, Starburst, gummy bears, jelly beans and Sour Patch Kids. It is not clear whether the owners of those brands have given permission for them to be used. In dealing with an issue as wide-ranging as the flavours of tobacco, nicotine and vaping products, it perhaps worthwhile examining what products like this do to our society on a moral and aesthetic level. With that, the mind is drawn to Edmund Burke’s 1757 pamphlet, whose introduction is entitled “On Taste”, which is apposite to today’s discussion. Burke distinguishes between the rational and emotional elements in our judgment of beauty and taste. He posits that our emotional response to things—what pleases or displeases us—is so deeply tied to our senses and desires, which can sometimes override reason. Flavoured vapes, with their artificially sweet, intense flavours and bright colours, cater to the immediate emotional pleasure of the consumer—what Burke describes as a “base” or overly indulgent form of aesthetic experience. These excessive and artificial flavours may distort or corrupt the finer faculties of taste. Burke identifies that aesthetics and taste have social and moral implications for society overall. No doubt he would view the proliferation of flavoured vapes as the very debasement of our society, especially if it targets youth or promotes unhealthy habits—as it does. Cotton candy-flavoured vapes, Burke would probably say, are an emotional and sensory indulgence that ultimately contributes to decay, where the immediate gratification of the senses trumps the more enduring experience that shapes a moral society. That reminds me once again of when headteacher Laranya Caslin told the Health and Social Care Committee about students asking, “Have you tried this flavour? Have you tried that flavour? I prefer this one.” She said that “if you want…to get involved in a social conversation and you haven’t watched the last episode of ‘Love Island’, you are a bit out of it,” and explained that the same is true of conversations on vape flavours. Ms Caslin made a very important point, which is sometimes neglected, that role of flavours—which is why they need regulating in clause 92—in this dynamic is not just about personal preference, but can for some children be about a sense of belonging. It is a powerful form of social currency. It is not just about the product itself, but about what it represents within the broader context of social life. Some Members—but not the Minister, as he has been clear—may remember smoking cigarettes in their youth in an effort to fit in or look cool. The proliferation of flavours has made vapes more of a trend to be constantly followed and more than just a product; in many ways, they have become a cultural marker, as much the clothes people wear or the media they consume. We have heard examples of students who have chosen their vape for the day on the basis of its colour and flavour, to match what they are wearing. The Government have looked at impact of clause 92. Paragraph 990 of the impact assessment states: “In the UK, a 2024 survey by ASH shows that the most frequently used vape flavouring for people that vape under 18 years old is ‘fruit flavour,’ with 59% of people that currently vape under 18 using them, while 16% of children who vape choose sweet flavours such as chocolate or candy, and 5.9% choose to vape energy or soft drink flavours.” I note the Minister’s comments about energy drinks in last night’s debate on obesity. The impact assessment continues: “The use of flavoured vapes in adult smokers has also increased. In 2015, most adults who vaped used tobacco flavour. However, in recent years there has been a shift, and in 2023 more adults are choosing fruit flavours (47%), as well as mint and menthol (17%), than tobacco (12%).” I asked one of the members of the industry very early on, “Why is it that you need the flavours?” [ Interruption. ]

• 21 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  My support for the hon. Gentleman diminished slightly when he said that the data will be available for everyone to see. There is a point to saying that if the data is available, sharing it with Government, public health officials and those who treat it confidentially to try to improve the public’s health, and to trading standards to assist enforcement, may be useful, but providing data to competitors is the wrong thing to do. First, that is unfair in a free market. Secondly, might not this data be used by companies in this industry, which we know is adaptable and agile, to increase sales in areas where they presumed a competitor was selling but have found out they are not? I am not sure that the data is required to be published for the public interest. The Minister could tell us whether there are any other instances where we expect private companies to tell us who they are selling to and where and to publish quantities of sale online for other companies to see. I cannot think of an example, but the Committee may be able to. Perhaps the hon. Member for North Somerset who is a pharmacist may be able to help, because he has more experience—

• 21 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  Thank you, Mr Dowd—I am sure you have no opinion on this matter, as you are impartial. Before giving powers under clause 90 to change packaging and make packaging regulations, it is important that we understand the Minister’s intention. Is it to strengthen or to weaken?

• 21 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  Can the Minister give us some timescales for the consultation and explain the various details that it will add to the consultation done by the previous Government?

• 21 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  Clause 90 is in part 5, on product and information requirements, and deals with the retail packaging of various products. Clause 90(1) grants the Secretary of State the authority to make regulations concerning the retail packaging of tobacco products, tobacco-related devices, herbal smoking products, cigarette papers, vaping products and nicotine products. This is one provision where tobacco-related devices are included; they have not been previously, in most clauses. The packaging is of the device, which may be supplied separately from a refill, so that is an important addition. Clause 90(2) specifies that the regulations may include “prohibitions, requirements or limitations in relation to the production, importation or supply of such products in the course of business.” That is relevant because a quick search on the internet reveals that although quite a lot of things are prohibited in the UK, including different forms of cigarettes—those with branded packaging, coloured cigarettes and the like—and they may not be legal to sell in this country, it is perfectly possible to go on to a website, buy them in British pounds and have them supplied to one’s home, so there is a clear loophole that needs to be considered. Subsection (3) outlines particular aspects that the regulations may cover, including the markings on packaging, such as the use of branding, trademarks and logos. I think the use of the word “logo” is key, because if I were to draw a pair of golden arches, people would know what I meant without my needing to write “McDonald’s” next to them, or if I did a little tick, people would know what I meant before I said that it was for Nike. The same is true of various logos, such as for Amazon and others, where the picture has become so well known that the name of the brand is not required to identify it. There is actually a board game that people can buy for their kids to test how good they are at identifying logos. Clearly, brand marketers are very aware of the use of shapes—as well as just the name—for identifying their products. It is also possible to regulate the information provided on packaging or otherwise supplied with a product and the appearance of packaging. We have seen pretty coloured packaging and packaging designed to entice children with its texture, size and shape. I have seen vape holders that are teddy bear-shaped, so that while someone is not using their vape, they can put it in a teddy bear that comes in a range of colours. They are available on Etsy. It is even possible to regulate the means by which packaging is opened. Those are useful powers for the Secretary of State to take, but only if he uses them. If he takes them and does not provide any regulations at all, they are worse than useless. Can the Minister explain the timescale in which he expects to perform any consultation required to introduce regulations to the House? In addition, subsection (3) allows the Secretary of State to address in his or her regulations any packaging features that could distinguish between different brands, the number of individual products in a packet or the quantity of a product in a packet. Products then become standardised items that are less attractive, particularly to children. Subsection (4) specifies that any regulations made under the clause will be subject to the affirmative resolution procedure, meaning that they must be approved by Parliament before coming into force. The regulations proposed as a result of the Secretary of State’s powers under the clause will build on previous regulations on shape and packaging. We are all aware that the shape, size and appearance of packaging has changed over our lifetimes. Indeed, on 20 May 2016 the UK implemented the Tobacco and Related Products Regulations 2016—the TRPRs—following the European Union’s tobacco products directive 2014/40/EU. The TRPRs form part of the current regulations retained as EU law after Brexit, and they contain a comprehensive set of rules for the regulation of nicotine-containing e-cigarettes and related products, often referred to as vapes. The TRPRs introduced several important product standards for nicotine-containing vapes, which marked a turning point in how those products are perceived and controlled. Notably, they placed limits on the nicotine strength allowed in e-liquids, restricted the size of refill bottles and tanks, and mandated specific health warnings on the packaging. The packaging requirements were introduced to ensure that customers were fully informed of the risks associated with using nicotine products. Again, placing the new regulations on top of the old ones will work only if they are properly enforced, and we have all seen examples of them not being properly enforced or followed. Under the current Tobacco and Related Products Regulations, nicotine-containing products such as e-cigarettes and e-liquids are required to carry a mandatory health warning on their packaging. However, the law allows significant flexibility on the colour, shape, style and types of branding used on those products, as we can see in the adverts when we walk down the street. Some of them are smooth-shaped, some are sharp, and some are shaped like SpongeBob SquarePants or teddy bears. There are also various flavours, although we will come to flavours later. The colours, branding and shapes are all part of the advertising to try to make the products attractive to users, and in some cases particularly to children. The approach to vapes under the current regulations is in stark contrast to the stringent requirements already in place for tobacco packaging, which is covered by the Standardised Packaging of Tobacco Products Regulations 2015. The regulations maintain that cigarettes and hand-rolling tobacco packaging must be plain, with no branding, logos or colours that could attract potential smokers. The stark difference between tobacco and vape packaging raises important questions about how best to protect young people from the growing appeal of vaping products, which are still seen by many as a safer alternative to traditional cigarettes. We must be clear that they may be safer for smokers, but not for children or people who do not smoke. It is important to understand the context behind clause 90. Before we had formal packaging regulations, cigarettes were sold with little to no concern for public health. Tobacco companies focused primarily on branding and advertising to create an appealing and recognisable product. The early 20th century saw the rise of the iconic cigarette brands, each seeking to distinguish itself through distinctive packaging designs. Often vibrant, colourful and glamorous—as we are seeing with vapes—they were designed to entice new customers, including young people, and to create a sense of status or sophistication. Cigarette packaging became a key component of the advertising strategy, with slogans, logos and images intended to convey a lifestyle associated with smoking. Of course, a young person attracted to them would have bought that packet, carried it and shown it to their friends. The packaging would form part of the attraction of the product, and encouraged people to take on a product that we would not have wanted them to. There were no health warnings at that time, and little was done to inform the public of the dangers associated with smoking. That persisted for many years until the latter half of the 20th century. As Members will be aware, throughout the history of tobacco advertising, characters and mascots have played a significant role. These often colourful, friendly and appealing figures, designed to make smoking appear safe, desirable and even fun, were found on the packets.

• 21 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  Further to that point of order, Mr Dowd. To make the Committee aware, that proposal has not been shared.

• 21 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  The clause deals with non-compliant images, and subsection (1) grants the Secretary of State the power to make regulations. There is a theme here—the Secretary of State is gaining a lot of powers to make regulations, but it is not clear to what extent he will use them. We could end up with a very effective piece of legislation or not, depending on how effectively these clauses are used. The clause states: “(1) The Secretary of State may by regulations prohibit a person from doing the following in the course of business— (a) publishing an image of the retail packaging of a relevant product” —that includes tobacco products, herbal smoking products, cigarettes, vapes and nicotine products— “from which it is possible to tell that the requirements of regulations under section 90 have not been complied with;”. Essentially, this is a packet that does not follow the rules. The clause continues: “(b) publishing an image of a relevant product from which it is possible to tell that the requirements of regulations under section 91 have not been complied with;”. That might be publishing a picture of a vape shaped like SpongeBob SquarePants—assuming that the Minister decides that that is not a suitable form for a vape to take—or “causing the publication of an image of the kind mentioned in paragraph (a) or (b).” Subsection (3) states: “Regulations…are subject to the affirmative resolution procedure.” The explanatory notes set out that the clause means that an online retailer would not be able to display images of non-compliant products. As we discussed earlier, it is important that we ensure that online retailers are subject to the same regulations as in-person retailers about what they can and cannot sell. Otherwise, the rule will be ineffective, because people will still access these things by simply moving online to buy them, rather than buying them in stores. From my perspective, that is welcome. I will make a couple of other points. Although the clause authorises the Secretary of State to regulate non-compliant images, it leaves the process of enforcement somewhat open-ended. There may be inconsistencies in how regulations are applied or enforced across different sectors or different regions, especially as the clause refers broadly to various product categories. More widely, I would be interested to know how the clause might relate to clothing. The clothing brand MCS, formerly known as Marlboro Classics, made extensive use of Marlboro branding, employing the iconic lettering and colouring on its clothes. I understand that MCS has since distanced itself from its roots and rebranded under a new parent company. Many of its older clothes can still be found in vintage clothes shops. Many of them display tobacco product branding, as might old football or Formula One merchandise from the times when those sports received sponsorship from tobacco firms. I would be grateful if the Minister could elaborate on how such products might be affected by the regulations. Finally, does the Minister intend the regulations to confer an exemption on law enforcement officers who may wish to produce such images to demonstrate and educate retailers about what sort of images they may or may not be allowed to publish?

• 21 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I understand that my hon. Friend does not believe that there is evidence at the moment on particular health disbenefits of vaping, but would he agree to be guided by the chief medical officer and other experts in this field when making that decision? At one time, medical professionals did not think smoking was bad. Things change and evidence comes out over time.

• 21 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I support the hon. Gentleman’s aims, but can he clarify whether he intends the data to be published widely or just shared with the Government for the purposes of health? Will it be available to competitors, for example?

• 21 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  Thank you. I also point out that last Thursday the Opposition Whip put forward sensible proposals, and we finished to time on the clauses that were required to be assessed, so we can act very reasonably when we are asked to. Amendments 6 to 9, tabled by the hon. Member for Dartford, would require the Secretary of State to make regulations requiring producers of tobacco products and other products covered by the Bill to provide sales data by geographical area, and would require the publication of such data. I am not clear how widely the hon. Gentleman wants the data to be published. Does he want it to be published and available on the internet, or does he want it to be provided just to the Government? Perhaps he could clarify his intentions. I am not sure how helpful the hon. Gentleman thinks this measure will be, because people do not necessarily consume where they purchase. The figures for a major service station, for example—perhaps where the M1 meets the M25—could really skew the data that he intends to be collected. Data from around King’s Cross may reflect people having a cigarette before they leave on a long journey, and the same may be true at airports. Does he have a view on the effect of that, or how it would be mitigated?

• 21 Jan 2025 · Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Tenth sitting) · Hansard source

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  I thank my hon. Friend for her point. Of course, Etsy is an online marketplace. We have talked already about the difficulties in regulating some of these changes in the online world and about the fact that some of the current regulations on tobacco products can be circumvented by the purchase of online products. People can circumvent regulations on things such as snus by buying them online from overseas. When the Minister brings forward regulations under clause 91, how will he ensure that they are applied and enforced in both the offline and online world, which is so crucial these days, particularly for younger people? Cancer Research UK provided evidence relating to the change of packets and products. It said it would respond to the consultation. The British Medical Association also provided written evidence. I declare an interest: as well as being a consultant paediatrician, I am a member of the British Medical Association. In relation to clauses 90 and 91, it suggested “All imagery, colouring and branding should be prohibited”.